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Post by johnnywest on Jul 12, 2014 12:44:09 GMT -5
The mind can't help but wander off to a deep, dark place after reading that story about "Baker Street". I wonder how many times BB magazine manipulated statistics to favor one song over another, or one artist over another. Fascinating and despicable at once. Just for comparison's sake on chart performance on "Baker Street" #1 for 4 weeks in R&R #1 for 2 weeks in Cash Box #2 for 6 weeks in Billboard #2 for 4 weeks in Record World |
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Post by vince on Jul 12, 2014 15:40:02 GMT -5
Earlier in this thread there was discussion of the 1978 "Shadow Dancing"/"Baker Street" issue. Scott Paton, then on AT40's staff, explains how he saw it in the comments section of this thread: jabartlett.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/at40-from-the-inside/#commentsAlso, Paton states that one reason why AT40 did its own year end countdown for 1977 was that they didn't think it made sense for "Tonight's the Night (Gonna Be Alright)", very much a 1976 hit, to be on top. However, in later years AT40 didn't always have similar issues with Billboard's rankings, as the 1987, 1988, and 1989 year end #1's were all from late in the previous calendar year. I think AT40 switched to doing their own year-end survey in 1980 because of BB’s early cut off that year, the survey period was 10/6/79 to 9/30/80. “Another One Bites The Dust” did not make BB’s 1980 survey and “Upside Down” only ranked at #18. Similar things happened in 1981 with “Start Me Up”, a big #2 hit did not making either BB’s 1981 or 1982 survey and “Arthur’s Theme” only ranking at #64 in BB’s 1981 survey. There are other examples, so with all these big hits ranking so low I think AT40 decided to do their own thing. In 1985, BB started counting songs full chart runs in one year so AT40 went back to using BB’s survey until the fiasco in 1989. |
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Post by torcan on Jul 13, 2014 12:15:16 GMT -5
I love stories like this ("Shadow Dancing" vs "Baker Street"). Too bad their aren't more of them around.
Another I can recall (saw it on a website a while back) was that in the '70s and early '80s, the final chart was "hand positioned" by the chart director based on such criteria as to whether the band was on tour, or had a TV special coming up, etc. It was Paul Grein, former Billboard writer, that stated this.
I guess those charts were the best we could get at the time, but obviously their was a LOT of manipulation for various reasons.
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Post by davewollenberg on Jul 13, 2014 20:36:20 GMT -5
Maybe AT 40 devised their own top 100 of '77, due to a low-charting song, such as Devil's gun, being ranked at #100 in Billboard's Year-end. It peaked at #36, on the weekly chart, stayed only 2 weeks in the 40, but, was on the Hot 100, for 29 weeks.
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Post by jmack19 on Jul 30, 2014 15:46:26 GMT -5
Wasn't "The Closer I Get to You" originally #1 and then scratched that same week? Was that manipulation or an honest error? Maybe the only one that knows this answer is the Billboard chart director at the time, but it's fun to speculate as AT40 fans. What do you think? Never heard about that one, but I remember a story about "Baker Street" being number one for a few hours, then they put "Shadow Dancing" at #1 instead, where it had been for the past few weeks. Not sure which week that almost happened, as "Baker Street" was number two for the last six weeks of the seven-week run of "Shadow Dancing". The thing about "The Closer I Get To You" does sound feasible, as it peaked at #2 the same week that "If I Can't Have You" hit #1. They might have decided to give the top spot to the latter since it was from Saturday Night Fever. I think Bilboard kept songs & especially albums at the top for extended periods of time to create for word of mouth for the magazine. Since RSO did not raise an issue in 1977 over the delay of moving "How Deep Is Your Love" to #1 right after Thanksgiving to around Christmas, it is possible other RSO productions were given favorable status. Notice how successful Billy Joel & Jackson Browne follow up albums were after "The Stranger" & "Running On Empty" were kept out of #1 by the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack. "SNF" was a double album & probably one of the most pirated lps at that time & was still #1 on the album chart July 8, 1978 without a Hot 100 single on the chart that week. |
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Post by dukelightning on Dec 14, 2014 11:19:40 GMT -5
Regarding "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" - I agree that it seems unlikely that the song would hold at #40 for two weeks while falling, but it might be at least be plausible. It's chart run on Billboard from 11/30/74 to 12/14/74 went 21-40-40. For those same weeks on Cashbox the movement was 22-38-45. A few months later, in February/March 1975, the Ohio Players' "Fire" took another fast drop and then paused, going 1-6-12-28-39-39. So maybe the Lennon plunge and pause wasn't entirely artificial, though its drop was steeper and the history-making nature of the extra week at #40 is decent reason for suspicion. I think the chart was more systematically warped in the early 1980s, when the system of not allowing songs to fall until they had lost their "stars" and "bullets" resulted in many songs moving up slowly, holding in high chart positions for weeks (and blocking several potential hits from the top 10, including some top 10s on other charts), and then suddenly falling off the proverbial cliff when allowed to drop. Casey just answered a question on the 12/15/79 show about whether the 4 solo Beatles ever were in the top 40 together. First of all, he said, "The first thing the AT40 staff thought was why would someone send in a question that was sure to get no for an answer." Seems strange that they would think that when something like this should be well known. Anyway, Casey then answered it by saying yes it happened for 2 weeks in January 1975. Did not mention that it also happened for that one week in Dec. 1974 because of the chart movement highlighted above. Could it be that AT40 in association with Billboard had acknowledged that it was indeed chart chicanery back then? BTW, this question being answered on the 12/15/79 show is exactly 5 years after the week in question but no mention was made of it. |
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Post by doofus67 on Apr 5, 2015 11:31:32 GMT -5
I've mentioned this in another post, but any Billboard chart from (at the latest) 1975 - April of 1983 was suspect because of Billboard's chart director. I haven't read Harris's book so I can't comment on his perspective; but Fredric Dannen put out a great book in 1990 called "Hit Men." It dealt mostly with the "pay to play" philosophy of radio stations and record companies, but there's also information on chart manipulation. Dannen wrote about an incident involving Al Coury, who was an executive from RSO records. Coury was determined to get "If I Can't Have You" to number one. So, he flew out to a convention Billboard was putting on in Venice with that goal in mind. Coury met with Bill Wardlow, chart director for Billboard. Coury wined and dined him and rented a yacht for them to sail on. When Coury's aide questioned why they were spending so much time on this one guy, Coury told him who Wardlow was and that he was doing this to ensure "If I Can't Have You" went to #1. Dannen end's the paragragh with "Next week, Yvonne Elliman was number one." Certainly that could be an explanation for why "The Closer I Get To You" peaked at #2. As to the "Baker Street" "Shadow Dancing" incident. I've never seen anything in print on this, but on the Cashbox website there's a segment on Gerry Rafferty. www.cashboxmagazine.com/news525.htmlThe story says that "Baker Street" actually was #1 on the chart Billboard sent them, but 15 minutes later they got an updated chart with "Shadow Dancing" back at #1. AT40 staffers are mentioned in the story; but again, I've never seen any printed evidence of this story. Knowing Wardlow's modus operandi, however, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm not saying that Wardlow was solely responsible for all the bizarre chart jumps and oddities that occurred during his tenure; I'm just suggesting a possible explanation for them. Rewind to late summer of '77. On the Billboard chart of August 20, Andy Gibb's "I Just Want to Be Your Everything" -- on RSO -- got knocked out of #1, after three consecutive weeks, by the Emotions' "Best of My Love." By September 10, the Emotions had held on at the top for four weeks in a row, while Andy dropped to #3 after three weeks in a row at #2.
September 17 was when things got interesting. The Emotions dropped to #3, looking as though they'd had their turn. Andy, in his 22nd week on the Hot 100, "miraculously" leaped from #3 to snag a fourth nonconsecutive week at #1. The Floaters seemed to be next in line, making a nice move from #5 to #2 with "Float On."
Then came September 24. The Emotions made the same dramatic 3-to-1 jump. In retrospect, it was almost as if their record company, Columbia, decided that two could play that game. And wouldn't you know, Andy plummeted from #1 to #6, as though RSO had said, "OK, we're done with him. Let him fall where he may." Meanwhile, the poor Floaters floated at #2.
But wait. All this foolishness made what was happening with the other competing charts that much more fascinating.
In Cash Box, the chart of September 24 showed Meco's "Star Wars Theme" already in the top spot, replacing Fleetwood Mac's "Don't Stop." (Rita Coolidge, with "Higher and Higher," had managed to get a turn at #1 as well.) Andy Gibb had dropped, gradually and quietly, to #11 by this point. And get this: I had to scroll down to find the Emotions. They were #21! If ever there was a wider discrepancy between BB and CB, it would be news to me.
In Radio & Records for (roughly) the same week, Fleetwood Mac was in their third and final week at #1. Andy Gibb was down from #7 to #15. The Emotions were down from #2 to #6.
Let's review:
| Artist | Chart date | BB | CB | R&R | | Andy Gibb | 9/10 | #3 | #7 | #7 |
| 9/17 | #1 | #8 | #7 |
| 9/24 | #6 | #11 | #15 | | The Emotions | 9/10 | #1 | #5 | #2 |
| 9/17 | #3 | #15 | #2 |
| 9/24 | #1 | #21 | #6 | | Fleetwood Mac | 9/10 | #6 | #3 | #1 |
| 9/17 | #5 | #1 | #1 |
| 9/24 | #3 | #2 | #1 |
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Post by ivanzero on Apr 5, 2015 17:23:24 GMT -5
I've mentioned this in another post, but any Billboard chart from (at the latest) 1975 - April of 1983 was suspect because of Billboard's chart director. I haven't read Harris's book so I can't comment on his perspective; but Fredric Dannen put out a great book in 1990 called "Hit Men." It dealt mostly with the "pay to play" philosophy of radio stations and record companies, but there's also information on chart manipulation. Dannen wrote about an incident involving Al Coury, who was an executive from RSO records. Coury was determined to get "If I Can't Have You" to number one. So, he flew out to a convention Billboard was putting on in Venice with that goal in mind. Coury met with Bill Wardlow, chart director for Billboard. Coury wined and dined him and rented a yacht for them to sail on. When Coury's aide questioned why they were spending so much time on this one guy, Coury told him who Wardlow was and that he was doing this to ensure "If I Can't Have You" went to #1. Dannen end's the paragragh with "Next week, Yvonne Elliman was number one." Certainly that could be an explanation for why "The Closer I Get To You" peaked at #2. As to the "Baker Street" "Shadow Dancing" incident. I've never seen anything in print on this, but on the Cashbox website there's a segment on Gerry Rafferty. www.cashboxmagazine.com/news525.htmlThe story says that "Baker Street" actually was #1 on the chart Billboard sent them, but 15 minutes later they got an updated chart with "Shadow Dancing" back at #1. AT40 staffers are mentioned in the story; but again, I've never seen any printed evidence of this story. Knowing Wardlow's modus operandi, however, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm not saying that Wardlow was solely responsible for all the bizarre chart jumps and oddities that occurred during his tenure; I'm just suggesting a possible explanation for them. Rewind to late summer of '77. On the Billboard chart of August 20, Andy Gibb's "I Just Want to Be Your Everything" -- on RSO -- got knocked out of #1, after three consecutive weeks, by the Emotions' "Best of My Love." By September 10, the Emotions had held on at the top for four weeks in a row, while Andy dropped to #3 after three weeks in a row at #2.
September 17 was when things got interesting. The Emotions dropped to #3, looking as though they'd had their turn. Andy, in his 22nd week on the Hot 100, "miraculously" leaped from #3 to snag a fourth nonconsecutive week at #1. The Floaters seemed to be next in line, making a nice move from #5 to #2 with "Float On."
Then came September 24. The Emotions made the same dramatic 3-to-1 jump. In retrospect, it was almost as if their record company, Columbia, decided that two could play that game. And wouldn't you know, Andy plummeted from #1 to #6, as though RSO had said, "OK, we're done with him. Let him fall where he may." Meanwhile, the poor Floaters floated at #2.
But wait. All this foolishness made what was happening with the other competing charts that much more fascinating.
In Cash Box, the chart of September 24 showed Meco's "Star Wars Theme" already in the top spot, replacing Fleetwood Mac's "Don't Stop." (Rita Coolidge, with "Higher and Higher," had managed to get a turn at #1 as well.) Andy Gibb had dropped, gradually and quietly, to #11 by this point. And get this: I had to scroll down to find the Emotions. They were #21! If ever there was a wider discrepancy between BB and CB, it would be news to me.
In Radio & Records for (roughly) the same week, Fleetwood Mac was in their third and final week at #1. Andy Gibb was down from #7 to #15. The Emotions were down from #2 to #6.
Let's review: Andy Gibb...9/10 -- BB #3, CB #7, R&R #7 9/17 -- BB #1, CB #8, R&R #7 9/24 -- BB #6, CB #11, R&R #15 Emotions...9/10 -- BB #1, CB #5, R&R #2 9/17 -- BB #3, CB #15, R&R #2 9/24 -- BB #1, CB #21, R&R #6 Fleetwood Mac...9/10 -- BB #6, CB #3, R&R #1 9/17 -- BB #5, CB #1, R&R #1 9/24 -- BB #3, CB #2, R&R #1
Does anyone think the RSO shenanigans can be traced back that far? If so, it was just a taste of what was to come in the next couple of years!
Awesome work! Kudos. I agree, that is some weeeeeird chart action and feels like something more than just random evidence that happens to fit the theory. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the (ahem) flowing rivers of RSO hijinx really got rolling in the wake of Andy's debut splash. |
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Post by lasvegaskid on Jun 14, 2015 10:13:12 GMT -5
It has also been stated that RSO and/or the Gibbs manipulated "If I Can't Have You" to #1 at the expense of "The Closer I Get to You". So only 4 songs peaked at #2 in 1978 and 2 of them seem to have been manipulated out of the #1 position by RSO et al. Another thing I noticed is all the songs that managed to reach #10 1977-1980 only to take spectacular falls out. Two of the biggest offenders were RSOs This Time I'm In It For Love (falling to #36) and Hold Onto My Love (#37). It is like the powers that be said "hell or high water we want a top tenner then you can do what you want with it". |
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Post by Hervard on Jun 14, 2015 10:50:15 GMT -5
Earlier in this thread there was discussion of the 1978 "Shadow Dancing"/"Baker Street" issue. Scott Paton, then on AT40's staff, explains how he saw it in the comments section of this thread: jabartlett.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/at40-from-the-inside/#commentsAlso, Paton states that one reason why AT40 did its own year end countdown for 1977 was that they didn't think it made sense for "Tonight's the Night (Gonna Be Alright)", very much a 1976 hit, to be on top. However, in later years AT40 didn't always have similar issues with Billboard's rankings, as the 1987, 1988, and 1989 year end #1's were all from late in the previous calendar year. I think AT40 switched to doing their own year-end survey in 1980 because of BB’s early cut off that year, the survey period was 10/6/79 to 9/30/80. “Another One Bites The Dust” did not make BB’s 1980 survey and “Upside Down” only ranked at #18. Similar things happened in 1981 with “Start Me Up”, a big #2 hit did not making either BB’s 1981 or 1982 survey and “Arthur’s Theme” only ranking at #64 in BB’s 1981 survey. There are other examples, so with all these big hits ranking so low I think AT40 decided to do their own thing. In 1985, BB started counting songs full chart runs in one year so AT40 went back to using BB’s survey until the fiasco in 1989. Was that "Look Away" being #1 of the year despite being practically out of the Top Ten by the first chart of 1989? I always thought that AT40 went their own way in 1990 because Billboard went back to cutoff date mode, with no points from the chart runs during the previous year and no projected points for songs having peaked but still charting at the end of the year. Who knows; perhaps it was a combination of both. |
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Post by mkarns on Jun 14, 2015 12:23:04 GMT -5
I think AT40 switched to doing their own year-end survey in 1980 because of BB’s early cut off that year, the survey period was 10/6/79 to 9/30/80. “Another One Bites The Dust” did not make BB’s 1980 survey and “Upside Down” only ranked at #18. Similar things happened in 1981 with “Start Me Up”, a big #2 hit did not making either BB’s 1981 or 1982 survey and “Arthur’s Theme” only ranking at #64 in BB’s 1981 survey. There are other examples, so with all these big hits ranking so low I think AT40 decided to do their own thing. In 1985, BB started counting songs full chart runs in one year so AT40 went back to using BB’s survey until the fiasco in 1989. Was that "Look Away" being #1 of the year despite being practically out of the Top Ten by the first chart of 1989? I always thought that AT40 went their own way in 1990 because Billboard went back to cutoff date mode, with no points from the chart runs during the previous year and no projected points for songs having peaked but still charting at the end of the year. Who knows; perhaps it was a combination of both. Yes, that was "Look Away" being #1 for 1989 according to AT40 and Billboard. I don't know if that specifically led to the change, but it may have influenced it. It was a huge hit, alright, but a 1988 one, not 1989. (For comparison, CT40's #1 for 1989 was "Miss You Much" by Janet Jackson, which in Billboard/AT40 was #1 for longer than any other song in the period being considered--four weeks, all in 1989.) The 1987 and 1988 year end #1's are a bit more defensible. For 1987, the Bangles' "Walk Like an Egyptian" (yes, I know your opinion of it) was #1 even though it reached the top in December 1986, but its four week run included the first full week of 1987. 1988's was "Faith" by George Michael, which was mostly #1 in December 1987, but it does make sense because, as pointed out upthread, 1988 was definitely his year, with three other #1 singles and the year's biggest selling album. |
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Post by Hervard on Jun 14, 2015 16:34:57 GMT -5
Of those three #1 songs, "Look Away" was far and away my favorite. I personally didn't mind that it was the #1 song of 1989, since Chicago had been hitting the charts for nearly 20 years and deserved to finally have a year-end #1 (because, IIRC, they'd never even been in the Top Ten for any year - the closest they came was in 1982, when "Hard To Say I'm Sorry" just barely missed, ranking at #11 for the year. Yes, it was more of a 1988 hit, but the cutoff date deferred it to the following year.
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Post by doofus67 on Sept 19, 2015 12:12:04 GMT -5
September 17 is this weekend's countdown on SiriusXM.
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Post by dukelightning on Sept 19, 2015 13:22:36 GMT -5
I could buy that about RSO. But in general a lot of rebounding songs leave you wondering about manipulations. Take the song that held the record for biggest drop from #1 for several years. "The Sounds of Silence" went 1-2-1-12. And I just heard a 1988 show where "Fast Car" went 6-7-6-16. The week that they rebounded sure seems like a mistake. TSOS maybe should have been at 6 or 7 instead of 1 and FC should have maybe been at 11 or 12 instead of 6. Makes you wonder at least.
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Post by Hervard on Sept 20, 2015 17:53:57 GMT -5
I could buy that about RSO. But in general a lot of rebounding songs leave you wondering about manipulations. Take the song that held the record for biggest drop from #1 for several years. "The Sounds of Silence" went 1-2-1-12. And I just heard a 1988 show where "Fast Car" went 6-7-6-16. The week that they rebounded sure seems like a mistake. TSOS maybe should have been at 6 or 7 instead of 1 and FC should have maybe been at 11 or 12 instead of 6. Makes you wonder at least. Actually, in the Hot 100 Singles Spotlight feature, the author said that he predicted "Fast Car" to move back up the following week, due to lack of competition in that area of the chart. It moved back up due to vacuum effect. The same week that FC rebounded, "When It's Love" moved from 8 to 5 and then dropped to 6 the next week. Chart action had resumed in the upper reaches of the chart; that would have explained "Fast Car" dropping out of the Top Ten. |
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