Chart Manipulations

[jaxxalude]

vince

Interesting data you show there. But if you allow me the joke, I guess Warner did well by paying for that year-end #1 in 1984, as History marks "When Doves Cry" way above "What's Love Got Do With It".

[saltrek]

Regarding "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" - I agree that it seems unlikely that the song would hold at #40 for two weeks while falling, but it might be at least be plausible.

It's chart run on Billboard from 11/30/74 to 12/14/74 went 21-40-40. For those same weeks on Cashbox the movement was 22-38-45.

[mkarns]

Oct 17, 2011 21:12:29 GMT -5 saltrek said:

Regarding "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" - I agree that it seems unlikely that the song would hold at #40 for two weeks while falling, but it might be at least be plausible.

It's chart run on Billboard from 11/30/74 to 12/14/74 went 21-40-40. For those same weeks on Cashbox the movement was 22-38-45.

A few months later, in February/March 1975, the Ohio Players' "Fire" took another fast drop and then paused, going 1-6-12-28-39-39. So maybe the Lennon plunge and pause wasn't entirely artificial, though its drop was steeper and the history-making nature of the extra week at #40 is decent reason for suspicion.

I think the chart was more systematically warped in the early 1980s, when the system of not allowing songs to fall until they had lost their "stars" and "bullets" resulted in many songs moving up slowly, holding in high chart positions for weeks (and blocking several potential hits from the top 10, including some top 10s on other charts), and then suddenly falling off the proverbial cliff when allowed to drop.

[Big Red Machine]

Oct 17, 2011 8:55:08 GMT -5 atruefan said:

Dannen wrote about an incident involving Al Coury, who was an executive from RSO records. Coury was determined to get "If I Can't Have You" to number one. So, he flew out to a convention Billboard was putting on in Venice with that goal in mind. Coury met with Bill Wardlow, chart director for Billboard. Coury wined and dined him and rented a yacht for them to sail on. When Coury's aide questioned why they were spending so much time on this one guy, Coury told him who Wardlow was and that he was doing this to ensure "If I Can't Have You" went to #1. Dannen end's the paragragh with "Next week, Yvonne Elliman was number one." Certainly that could be an explanation for why "The Closer I Get To You" peaked at #2.

Yeah, that is very believable. Since Saturday Night Fever was so popular and breaking records, you would think that not as many people would have bought the single to "If I Can't Have You" since they had the soundtrack already. Only collectors and fans that liked the B-Side would buy it. Whereas "The Closer I Get To You" was very marketable as a single and a much better song.

Thanks again for the story atruefan.

[Big Red Machine]

Whereas Olivia beating Foreigner for all of those weeks does seem believable since many during that time already had the Foreigner 4 album.

[bottlerocket]

Very fascinating stuff! However, I still can't imagine any methodology based on the weekly charts that could place "Kiss You All Over" over "How Deep Is Your Love" in 1978 especially with a November to November chart life. It spent more weeks in the top ten and top forty than any other song during Casey's time on the original AT40. "Kiss You All Over" didn't even reach number one until the last week of September and when it plummeted to number six on the last week of October it had spent 17 weeks on the entire Hot 100, the same number of weeks "How Deep Is Your Love" spent in the top 10 alone. I'd be very curious to see the number crunching there.

As much as I love "Waiting For A Girl Like You", I don't think it was ever in the same ballpark as "Physical" from a popularity standpoint. Cheesy as it may seem now, there was no one I knew back then who didn't know the song. I remember even my grandmother of 80 dancing to the song. I don't think I knew anyone at the time who really loved "Waiting For A Girl Like You" but it was easy to listen to and I imagine a radio favorite for that reason. From a non-anecdotal standpoint, "Physical" went platinum in its final week at number one while "Waiting For A Girl Like You" went gold a week after it spent its tenth week at number two. Of course, it was the second release from a number one album so its sales could easily be soft for that reason.

i think it more reasonable to say that there was someone asleep at the switch during that time than to say that "Waiting For A Girl Like You" was some massive hit kept from the top by nefarious forces. Someone recently posted here that if the song had been released just a few months later it could have easily number one. In my humble opinion, I think the song would have been stopped by "I Love Rock N Roll" AND "Open Arms". As rock ballads go, I always though "Open Arms" was a much more popular song even though personally I prefer "Waiting For A Girl Like You".

[Mike]

^ Something else to consider by that point would be Billboard's Holding Period Policy, which really amounts to legalized chart manipulation if you think about it...

[dukelightning]

The top 100 of 1977 is the one year end chart that elicits the most questions for me. First of all, why did AT40 decide to do their own calculations when they used Billboard's top 100 in the years before and after. Secondly, I think the reason Billboard placed "Tonight's the Night" ahead of "I Just..." is that they did not want a 4 week #1 song ahead of an 8 week #1 song. Did AT40 decide to their own top 100 because upon doing their own calculations and determining "I Just..." should be the #1 song, they thought there was no choice but to bypass Billboard.

But my biggest complaint and I will preface this by saying I am not a big fan of this song. When AT40 recorded the top 100 of 1977, they also recorded the final weekly program in which "You Light Up My Life" was in its 10th week at #1. So when doing the year end show, they knew how many weeks YLUML had spent at #1. Knowing that it was the longest running #1 hit of the decade, I think they should have ignored the survey period and installed it at #1 for the year. Only the most accomplished chart buffs would have even questioned it and most listeners would not have been surprised.

[Mike]

Oct 18, 2011 18:32:54 GMT -5 dukelightning said:

The top 100 of 1977 is the one year end chart that elicits the most questions for me. First of all, why did AT40 decide to do their own calculations when they used Billboard's top 100 in the years before and after. Secondly, I think the reason Billboard placed "Tonight's the Night" ahead of "I Just..." is that they did not want a 4 week #1 song ahead of an 8 week #1 song. Did AT40 decide to their own top 100 because upon doing their own calculations and determining "I Just..." should be the #1 song, they thought there was no choice but to bypass Billboard.

But my biggest complaint and I will preface this by saying I am not a big fan of this song. When AT40 recorded the top 100 of 1977, they also recorded the final weekly program in which "You Light Up My Life" was in its 10th week at #1. So when doing the year end show, they knew how many weeks YLUML had spent at #1. Knowing that it was the longest running #1 hit of the decade, I think they should have ignored the survey period and installed it at #1 for the year. Only the most accomplished chart buffs would have even questioned it and most listeners would not have been surprised.

Re: "Tonight's the Night" - that kind of logic didn't stop them from putting "Careless Whisper" (3 weeks) ahead of "Like a Virgin" (6 weeks) eight years later.

It's theorized that YLUML, plus the fact that quite a few lower-charting singles finished higher on the year-end chart, led AT40 to decide to go with their own year-end chart for '77. Source

[vince]

Another possible reason AT40 did not use BB’s chart in 1977 was “Tonight’s The Night” was number one in the 1976 calender year and they wanted the number one song from the 1977 calender year. “You Light Up My Life” was not #1 on AT40's YE countdown because AT40 probably compiled their countdown in November 1977, the cut off was 11/12/77. The show was probably recorded in late November or early December 1977.

For “Kiss You All Over” vs “How Deep Is Your Love”, HDIYL only got credit 2 weeks at #1 because BB didn’t count the frozen week. KYAO was credited for 4 weeks At #1. KYAO could have beat out HDIYL with #1 bonus points. Although, it is odd though that “Shadow Dancing” would out rank “Night Fever” if a lot of weight was given for weeks at #1. BB’s 1978 year end chart appeared to have used a correction factor to give more credit to songs in the 2nd half of the survey period. If this is what happened, I have no idea why they would have calculated it that way.

I did rank 1978 using methodologies that were used in different years in the 70s. Using the methodology BB used 1970 to 1975, I matched #1 & #2, but the rest of the top 10 is different. I am surprized that RSO didn't pay for this.

2560 *1 SHADOW DANCING Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, June)
2490 *2 NIGHT FEVER The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, March)
2430 *3 STAYIN' ALIVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Feb)
2348 *4 HOW DEEP IS YOUR LOVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Dec 1977)
2236 *5 LOVE IS THICKER THAN WATER Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, March)
1985 6 I GO CRAZY Paul Davis (Bang) (#7, March)
1980 *7 BABY COME BACK Player (RSO) (#1, Jan)
1961 *8 YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE Debby Boone (Warner/Curb) (#1, Oct 1977)
1858 *9 YOU'RE THE ONE THAT I WANT John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John (RSO) (#1, June)
1828 *10 BOOGIE OOGIE OOGIE A Taste Of Honey (Capitol) (#1, Sept)

The methodology used in 1976 and 1979 was closer to BB’s but still not exact.

5290 *1 NIGHT FEVER The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, March)
4660 *2 SHADOW DANCING Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, June)
4061 *3 YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE Debby Boone (Warner/Curb) (#1, Oct 1977)
3030 *4 STAYIN' ALIVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Feb)
2448 *5 HOW DEEP IS YOUR LOVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Dec 1977)
2361 *6 KISS YOU ALL OVER Exile (Warner/Curb) (#1, Sept)
2336 *7 LOVE IS THICKER THAN WATER Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, March)
2280 *8 BABY COME BACK Player (RSO) (#1, Jan)
2128 *9 BOOGIE OOGIE OOGIE A Taste Of Honey (Capitol) (#1, Sept)
1985 10 I GO CRAZY Paul Davis (Bang) (#7, March)

While discussing 1978 it is odd that “Night Fever” was #1 8 weeks when it was the 3rd single off a huge selling Lp and the version on the 45 is the same as the Lp, but maybe it did it on radio air play. RSO must have spent a fortune on “Night Fever”.

[vince]

Oct 17, 2011 20:46:18 GMT -5 jaxxalude said:

vince

Interesting data you show there. But if you allow me the joke, I guess Warner did well by paying for that year-end #1 in 1984, as History marks "When Doves Cry" way above "What's Love Got Do With It".

If BB had used the same methodology they used to compile their 1983 YE countdown they could have gotten “When Doves Cry” at #1 for 1984 based on points.

[dukelightning]

Oct 18, 2011 23:33:56 GMT -5 vince said:

Another possible reason AT40 did not use BB’s chart in 1977 was “Tonight’s The Night” was number one in the 1976 calender year and they wanted the number one song from the 1977 calender year. “You Light Up My Life” was not #1 on AT40's YE countdown because AT40 probably compiled their countdown in November 1977, the cut off was 11/12/77. The show was probably recorded in late November or early December 1977.

For “Kiss You All Over” vs “How Deep Is Your Love”, HDIYL only got credit 2 weeks at #1 because BB didn’t count the frozen week. KYAO was credited for 4 weeks At #1. KYAO could have beat out HDIYL with #1 bonus points. Although, it is odd though that “Shadow Dancing” would out rank “Night Fever” if a lot of weight was given for weeks at #1. BB’s 1978 year end chart appeared to have used a correction factor to give more credit to songs in the 2nd half of the survey period. If this is what happened, I have no idea why they would have calculated it that way.

I did rank 1978 using methodologies that were used in different years in the 70s. Using the methodology BB used 1970 to 1975, I matched #1 & #2, but the rest of the top 10 is different. I am surprized that RSO didn't pay for this.

2560 *1 SHADOW DANCING Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, June)
2490 *2 NIGHT FEVER The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, March)
2430 *3 STAYIN' ALIVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Feb)
2348 *4 HOW DEEP IS YOUR LOVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Dec 1977)
2236 *5 LOVE IS THICKER THAN WATER Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, March)
1985 6 I GO CRAZY Paul Davis (Bang) (#7, March)
1980 *7 BABY COME BACK Player (RSO) (#1, Jan)
1961 *8 YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE Debby Boone (Warner/Curb) (#1, Oct 1977)
1858 *9 YOU'RE THE ONE THAT I WANT John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John (RSO) (#1, June)
1828 *10 BOOGIE OOGIE OOGIE A Taste Of Honey (Capitol) (#1, Sept)

The methodology used in 1976 and 1979 was closer to BB’s but still not exact.

5290 *1 NIGHT FEVER The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, March)
4660 *2 SHADOW DANCING Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, June)
4061 *3 YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE Debby Boone (Warner/Curb) (#1, Oct 1977)
3030 *4 STAYIN' ALIVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Feb)
2448 *5 HOW DEEP IS YOUR LOVE The Bee Gees (RSO) (#1, Dec 1977)
2361 *6 KISS YOU ALL OVER Exile (Warner/Curb) (#1, Sept)
2336 *7 LOVE IS THICKER THAN WATER Andy Gibb (RSO) (#1, March)
2280 *8 BABY COME BACK Player (RSO) (#1, Jan)
2128 *9 BOOGIE OOGIE OOGIE A Taste Of Honey (Capitol) (#1, Sept)
1985 10 I GO CRAZY Paul Davis (Bang) (#7, March)

While discussing 1978 it is odd that “Night Fever” was #1 8 weeks when it was the 3rd single off a huge selling Lp and the version on the 45 is the same as the Lp, but maybe it did it on radio air play. RSO must have spent a fortune on “Night Fever”.

Pete Battistini's book has productions schedules at the end of the year for various years. And in each one, the year end show is recorded on the same day as the last weekly show because they were all shipped together. So while the survey period obviously ended too early for "You Light Up My Life" to be the #1 song of 1977, my thought was that since they recorded the top 100 at the same time as the last weekly show in which YLUML was in its 10th week at #1, they should have made an exception to the year end tabulations and simply put it in as the #1 song.

That said, didn't Billboard or AT40 at some point in the 80s start giving songs from the beginning of the survey period full credit for their chart life? i.e. for the top 100 of 1978, YLUML would have been given credit for its entire chart run extending back to 9/3/77 when it debuted. If that had been the case, would it have been the #1 song of 1978 or does one of your tabulation scenarios reflect that already? Of course, even if that did result in YLUML being the #1 song of 1978, AT40 would have probably done the same thing and tabulated their own top 100 because once again, they wanted a song from the same calendar year at #1. BTW, I see that the Gibb family would have had the top 5 songs in one of those scenarios. I suppose Billboard put their foot down if Stigwood and company pressed them to do it that way!

[tarobe]

Chart manipulations would explain "coincidences" like John Lennon's "#9 Dream" hitting #9 or Pete Wingfield's "Eighteen with a Bullet" hitting #18 (with a bullet).

[Mike]

Oct 18, 2011 23:40:43 GMT -5 vince said:

If BB had used the same methodology they used to compile their 1983 YE countdown they could have gotten “When Doves Cry” at #1 for 1984 based on points.

I think I remember seeing somewhere on this board that they did, and only changed in 1985 (among other possible things, 1985 was the year they started counting whole runs for songs in the survey period, no matter if those runs started out of the survey period or not).

[at40petebattistini]

dukedeb: Pete Battistini's book has productions schedules at the end of the year for various years. And in each one, the year end show is recorded on the same day as the last weekly show because they were all shipped together.

It's long been my belief that the reason the AT40 staff tabulated their own year-end list was primarily due to timing. For example, according to AT40's 1975 production schedule, part one of the year-end program was recorded on Saturday, November 15. And the second part was completed one week later. As you know, for Casey to begin recording on November 15, the song list has to be in place, and the program has to be scripted and laid out in advance. I don't believe Billboard's year-end Top 100 was ready in time to fit into the show's production schedule.