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Post by matt on Jul 13, 2011 18:11:55 GMT -5
Look, I think it's ME who has to call you out, wahoo. Only ignorance can explain the fact that you still see sampling the same way fogies used to in the early 90's. Look, sampling has come a long way. The same way Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen pushed the limits of what an electric guitar could do, people like Prince Paul, The 45 King, Dan The Automator, Steinski, Madlib and Jaydee have, at different times, redefined what sampling means and what to do with it. You can't just lean on a basic example like Vanilla Ice's to prove your point. I mean, why don't you use Kanye West's or Just Blaze's way of sampling in their productions in the early to mid-00's as an example (cf: the chipmunk effects, the timestretching, etc.). In Kanye's case, he actually pitched the samples up by... you wouldn't guess it: using his own drums and instruments. Yes, that's right: some of these producers actually have formal music training, my friend. They just use it in a way that is non-traditional. OK fine, you don't like my Vanilla Ice example. But most of the time when a "hip" radio stations of today is within ear shot of me, I hear a current song that is heavily based in samples, and usually find myself rolling my eyes because I can pick out the song from the 70's or 80's that the sample was taken from. And I think to myself, gee the 14-year olds jamming out to this song probably have no idea that the charlatans who are singing or rapping to it lifted the main part of it from another song. My point was, that you say samples are the same as instruments, and I am saying that is wrong. Whether it's another song's riff, chipmunk noises, or a pig snorting, a snippet of sound that was created, produced, and/or recorded by somebody else is not an instrument, regardless of how much musical training the artist or producer implementing the sample into a different song may have. And I do think that is where a lot or rap and hip hop gets put down by us "old fogies" who see through the game being played.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 13, 2011 18:21:57 GMT -5
The 14-year olds give as much of a rat's ass where the song came from the same way today's old fogies did when Zepellin lifted obscure blues recordings wholesale and passed them as their own. Notice that I'm not saying parts or chunks - it was entire pieces of music stolen from poor Black musicians who never had the means to defend themselves. And as much as you want to deny it, samples are instruments. Some of them get better manipulated than others, but they are instruments, fullstop, period, the end. Not admitting this is just downright stubbornness and refusal to adapt to changing times.
Oh, and another thing: hip-hop doesn't have any melodies? The singing choruses of most of hip-hop's most popular songs would beg to disagree, for starters. Furthermore, as I already said, about more than half of today's hip-hop isn't even sample-based anymore, but created from origin.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 13, 2011 18:32:48 GMT -5
One more thing: most of you wouldn't believe how grateful a lot of old soul, jazz, R&B, funk and blues musicians were when hip-hop came about. It was through sampling that a lot of them got known by younger generations and, in some cases, even managed to make a living out of music again. Not to mention how sampling contributed a lot to the legendary status that figures like James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Barry White or John Lee Hooker wholeheartedly deserve. The public service sampling has done to a lot of worthy people over the years is tons more valuable than this discussion will ever be.
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Post by matt on Jul 13, 2011 18:33:19 GMT -5
OK jaxx, so we'll agree to disagree. For the record, I don't even dislike the practice of sampling and can think of several songs that incorporate samples that I do like. I also didn't say that hip hop doesn't have melodies or incorporate singing. The original question to this thread, was why hip hop isn't well received among many of us who are big fans and avid listeners of the old AT40 shows, and I offered up the over-use of samples in lieu of real instruments that have long been prevalent in hip hop as a possible reason. At least it is one of the things that has turned me off to many hip hop songs over the years.
All that being said, I will never be of the belief that samples are instruments, no matter how much anyone tries to convince me otherwise.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 13, 2011 18:48:59 GMT -5
Look, wahoo, you yourself spoke of how musicians inspire each other and of how certain melodies seep out into other songs. In many cases, that happens through the changing of one or two notes by one or two tones. And when that happens, it can be a whole new context created from scratch. Well, that's what sampling is supposed to be in the first place. You take out chunks from other sources (be it pieces of music, field recordings, sound footage, etc.) and put it another, sometimes completely different context. And within it, you can also manipulate the sounds the way you like it, to the point where the original sources can actually be deemed unrecognizable. In that way, sampling, when done with mastery, can be the ultimate source of sound manipulation. Therefore, it deserves to be called an instrument.
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Post by shadster on Jul 13, 2011 19:05:03 GMT -5
Back when HH/Rap made its 1st appearance in the 40, the late 80s, it was kind of a novelty. ANd of course only the best of the best HH/Rap songs actually made it into the 40, alongside artists like Madonna, Bryan Adams, Elton John, Rod Stewart, Def Leopard. It was part of what made Top40 great; A smorgasbord of hits. Back then I liked the genre as well, Young MC, Hammer, Sir MixAlot, Digital underground. Good stuff. Even through-out the 90's, The top40 only saw the VERY Best Rap/HH songs chart. There was usually 1-3 songs per countdown. When the 2000's came, that completely changed. The top40 became the HH/Rap Top 40 w/ half of the countdown containing rap artists. I think this hostile takeover of CHR (Contemporary Hit Radio) is where most of us lost interest in current CHR an developed a resentment towards HH/Rap. Not only that, but songs themselves were mostly un-original, in some cases cheesy, an un-imaginitive. Similiarly, at the end of the 80s, early 90s, Heavy metal started taking over the Top40 (which I thought was great but...), and as a result, w/ listeners dropping like flies, the format "Top40" died. New formats emerged: CHR, w/ its different classes: CHR Rhythmic, CHR Dance; and HotAC, an its subclass: AdultTop40. Top40 splintered into multiple directions, dividing all the listeners up.
Speaking for myself, it was defintly this century's Rap/HipHop takeover of the TOp40 that formed my personal hatred towards the genre. Unlike most ppl though, I still listen to CHR. I do a lot of editing though, to eliminate the rap: I re-edited the J Lo song "On the floor" to delete Pitbull, also removed Tinnie Tempah from the "Written in the stars" song, only Eric Turner remains, and it took A LOT of editing to delete Kayne West from the Daft Punk song "Stronger". But those are NOW good songs I.M.O. (after my edits). Strange thing is, I used to actually like rap. Now I go out of my way to eliminate it from songs to create a listenable Top40. But thats just me. CHR is actually making a strong comeback now. Theres still a good deal of HH/Rap on it but, thanks to Lady GaGa, there is a good deal of dance as well. Allthough, who knows, the masses might get sick of dance after a while an there will be another 'changing of the tides'.
I guess the only problem I have w/ Rap/HH is its invasion of Top40. Rap/HH should go back an stay where it belongs, on the Urban stations! Thats what urban stations are for right?? I dont mind the occasional break thru rap single, but now even the 'so-so' rap singles are on the chart. I know its just what the Corporations think the teens want to hear, but the teens only want to hear it becuz they're shovin it down their throats. Program directors just arnt as brazen as they used to be. Heck now theres 1 PD for every cluster of stations. Of course radio is sadly falling into a black hole w/ the Ipod generation pushing it in.
Well I've rambled on enough now I think. But using me as an example, I think you can see why theres such resentment toward this genre.
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Post by donwa001 on Jul 13, 2011 19:17:47 GMT -5
I hate the amount of profanity in the lyrics of so many hip hop songs (ie. Lighters - Bad Meets Evil Featuring Bruno Mars). Looking at the lyrics of some songs, I think I'm reading the script to an X rated film.
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Jul 13, 2011 20:12:18 GMT -5
Hate to tell you, but ripping off someone elses song and basing your whole song on it is WORLDS APART from what rock artists did by lifting a riff. At least they PLAYED the d**n thing on REAL instruments.
And please don't put a genius and Eddie Van Halen in the same sentence. Thats just wrong. and don't compare them to the jokes that churn out rap music, even a crap ghuitarist like EVH is MILES above any and all rap/hip hop acts COMBINED!
And I have LESS THAN 0 RESPECT FOR EVH!
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 13, 2011 20:21:16 GMT -5
bestmusicexpert, are you Bob Lefsetz?
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Jul 14, 2011 7:06:22 GMT -5
Who the hell is Bob Lefsetz?
No, I'm Jeff Michaels, host of my countdown show....
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 14, 2011 7:30:38 GMT -5
Who the hell is Bob Lefsetz? Someone who also has a tendency to write in caps.
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Jul 14, 2011 7:39:06 GMT -5
Oh, well, I didn't write in all caps, just a few words where I wanted to make a point.
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Jul 14, 2011 7:40:47 GMT -5
Hey Shadster, Glad you edit out these rappers from otherwise good songs! BTW, there is a non Pitbull edit of On The Floor out there available, sadly it doesn't get the airplay!
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Post by matt on Jul 14, 2011 9:20:28 GMT -5
Yes, and shadster, I think you put it very well. The influx of hip hop into CHR/Top 40 radio during the past decade has really turned a lot of us top 40 radio listeners off, and given us a negative attitude towards the genre in general.
And I reiterate, if there were more hip hop in top 40 radio that was actually good music, I wouldn't be so down on it. But so much of the hip hop you hear on commercial radio is sophomoric unlistenable dreck.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jul 14, 2011 9:29:25 GMT -5
That is why going beyond the Top 40 is always good. In fact, going beyond what radio plays tends to be a good idea. A lot of you won't even imagine the good surprises you'd get if you ventured outside that comfort zone sometimes.
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