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Post by retroguy on Jul 6, 2015 18:00:55 GMT -5
I was listening to week ending June 29, 1974 and noticed that they had La Grange by ZZ Top at number 33 and had seen from another source that La Grange peaked at number 41.
I then compared the Billboard hot 100 chart and it didn't match up to most of the AT40 for that week.
at the end of the show Casey said this:
Our list was tabulated by the AT40 staff based on their opinions and estimate of probable chart positions for the week ending June 29, 1974.
I thought that all the weekly charts were based on the Billboard hot 100?
Can someone enlighten me?
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Post by dukelightning on Jul 6, 2015 18:28:03 GMT -5
Casey could not be there for the normal recording of the show after the Billboard chart had been revealed due to having to be in Hawaii. So they decided to do their estimation of the top 40 hits. He was there for 3 weeks IIRC and so a guest host was lined up for another show during that time frame. They obviously felt having 2 guest hosted shows so close together when Casey never took more than one show off in those early years was not an option.
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Post by retroguy on Jul 6, 2015 18:30:08 GMT -5
I see....is that the only time that happened?
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Post by dukelightning on Jul 6, 2015 18:44:38 GMT -5
Yes and no. Yes it is the only time they estimated the top 40. But no it is not the only time that the top 40 played was not the same as what was in Billboard. The 6/9/73 show has many records at the wrong positions because that week Billboard changed thier methodology for the Hot 100 and in the process of formulating their chart, they goofed. So the top 40 chart info that was given to AT40 was wrong and the chart had to adjusted somewhat. This all happened after the show was recorded and too late for the staff to do the show again.
BTW, these are both weeks that bestmusicexpert could do in his series of doing countdowns for weeks when there was no regular show. Or in these cases, weeks where the wrong top 40 was counted down.
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Post by retroguy on Jul 6, 2015 20:38:39 GMT -5
Interesting. So those are the only 2 weeks that were different?
They sure goofed up on predicting La Grange moving up 10 notches to debut at #33 when it only moved up 2 to 41 and then dropped the following week.
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Post by doofus67 on Jul 7, 2015 2:08:25 GMT -5
Yes and no. Yes it is the only time they estimated the top 40. But no it is not the only time that the top 40 played was not the same as what was in Billboard. The 6/9/73 show has many records at the wrong positions because that week Billboard changed thier methodology for the Hot 100 and in the process of formulating their chart, they goofed. So the top 40 chart info that was given to AT40 was wrong and the chart had to adjusted somewhat. This all happened after the show was recorded and too late for the staff to do the show again. BTW, these are both weeks that bestmusicexpert could do in his series of doing countdowns for weeks when there was no regular show. Or in these cases, weeks where the wrong top 40 was counted down. These irregularities haven't stopped either Premiere or SiriusXM from running the 6/29/74 and 6/9/73 countdowns anyway. We had a discussion about this on the AT40 on XM thread just the other day -- or should I say a dispute? There is a school of thought that the vast majority of the audience won't nitpick about which songs are at what specific positions, just so long as they get to hear the music that was in record stores and on radio stations at the time. That's a totally valid argument.
But then there are folks like me (and, perhaps, you to some extent?) who rely on AT40 for its accuracy and authenticity. That's not to say that I'm not fascinated when a countdown doesn't follow the official chart for whatever reason. I actually went back once and ran the numbers on 6/9/73. Maybe I felt sorry for AT40 in that case because clearly what happened with the rankings wasn't their fault. Anyhow, the two top tens had eight songs in common; the top 20's had 16; and the whole top 40's had 35. Only three songs matched exactly.
J.A. Bartlett ran the numbers in a similar way for 6/29/74. This is his latest blog on Wordpress: jabartlett.wordpress.com/2015/07/03/dont-lose-that-number/
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Post by kchkwong on Jul 7, 2015 4:09:10 GMT -5
There are a few other countdowns that AT40 played one or two songs in the wrong positions:
5/11/74: #33 and #34 were swapped
8/13/83: #38 should be "It's Inevitable" by Charlie but they played "Pieces Of Ice" by Diana Ross, which dropped out of the Top 40 that week, instead
9/1/84: #12 and #15 were swapped
12/15/84: #22 and #23 were swapped
No idea if there are other similar incidents.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 4:50:21 GMT -5
Yes and no. Yes it is the only time they estimated the top 40. But no it is not the only time that the top 40 played was not the same as what was in Billboard. The 6/9/73 show has many records at the wrong positions because that week Billboard changed thier methodology for the Hot 100 and in the process of formulating their chart, they goofed. So the top 40 chart info that was given to AT40 was wrong and the chart had to adjusted somewhat. This all happened after the show was recorded and too late for the staff to do the show again. BTW, these are both weeks that bestmusicexpert could do in his series of doing countdowns for weeks when there was no regular show. Or in these cases, weeks where the wrong top 40 was counted down. These irregularities haven't stopped either Premiere or SiriusXM from running the 6/29/74 and 6/9/73 countdowns anyway. We had a discussion about this on the AT40 on XM thread just the other day -- or should I say a dispute? There is a school of thought that the vast majority of the audience won't nitpick about which songs are at what specific positions, just so long as they get to hear the music that was in record stores and on radio stations at the time. That's a totally valid argument.
But then there are folks like me (and, perhaps, you to some extent?) who rely on AT40 for its accuracy and authenticity. That's not to say that I'm not fascinated when a countdown doesn't follow the official chart for whatever reason. I actually went back once and ran the numbers on 6/9/73. Maybe I felt sorry for AT40 in that case because clearly what happened with the rankings wasn't their fault. Anyhow, the two top tens had eight songs in common; the top 20's had 16; and the whole top 40's had 35. Only three songs matched exactly.
J.A. Bartlett ran the numbers in a similar way for 6/29/74. This is his latest blog on Wordpress: jabartlett.wordpress.com/2015/07/03/dont-lose-that-number/
Think about it this way. Whether it accurately reflects Billboards chart, that was American Top 40s chart that week and thus part of their history. It's like the debate about records being broken. Whether someone agrees with a record over the last 15 years being broken and considers it as a great a feat as the previous record holder, it is an American Top 40 record whether that person agrees with it or not. As far as chart integrity, listen to shows from September 74 through the rest of the year. Estimating a chart for radio production purposes is far more above board than the Hot 100 itself during this time in many cases. |
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Post by djjoe1960 on Jul 7, 2015 7:25:10 GMT -5
I recall one show in 1977 , March 12 to be exact, where Casey mentions that Billboard just phoned and said three songs changed positions from what was originally reported to AT40. The show was about 2/3 of the way up that week's chart and rather than re-record those segments affected, Casey simply mentioned the new positions for songs by Elton John, Olivia Newton-John and Stevie Wonder. When I originally heard the show back in 1977 I thought that was sorta odd and today I wonder why they never simply went back and corrected those segments of the programs; especially since I now know that Casey did his voice tracks long before the music was added.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 9:24:59 GMT -5
I would assume that even with voice tracking there were still technological limitations that could have made putting them in place where they needed to go a chore. Even in 1980 it's been said how ABC was fortunate that both segments they needed to edit out of the replacement disc for Lennons death were on the same one. That was just a matter of removing a question and references to it entirely on one side and redoing 1 song that was in a segment all by itself on the other.
Plus, it's been told Casey and Don were perfectionist who would cut and recut segments several times. I'm sure everyone was thrilled when they handled it with the phone call reference.
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Post by doofus67 on Jul 7, 2015 14:10:02 GMT -5
I definitely agree, Paul. A record is a record. When they say that "One Sweet Day" spent the most weeks at #1, who am I to question it? Personally, I believe that example had a lot to do with the dramatic changes in methodology that took place in the early '90s. But that's one reason I like to keep my stats for this board restricted to the original Casey AT40 period of 1970-1988.
Yes, Billboard had some serious chart integrity issues. The fall of 1974 is merely a starting point to the conversation. The problems went far beyond that time frame. That's why the Chart Manipulations thread is such a must-read. |
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Post by mkarns on Jul 7, 2015 14:36:56 GMT -5
There are a few other countdowns that AT40 played one or two songs in the wrong positions: 5/11/74: #33 and #34 were swapped 8/13/83: #38 should be "It's Inevitable" by Charlie but they played "Pieces Of Ice" by Diana Ross, which dropped out of the Top 40 that week, instead 9/1/84: #12 and #15 were swapped 12/15/84: #22 and #23 were swapped No idea if there are other similar incidents. 9/23/72: #34 and 39 were swapped. Uriah Heep's "Easy Livin" was played at #34 when Billboard never actually placed it higher than 39. (Leon Russell's "Tight Rope" was conversely underranked that week.) |
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Post by doofus67 on Jul 7, 2015 14:51:00 GMT -5
There are a few other countdowns that AT40 played one or two songs in the wrong positions: 5/11/74: #33 and #34 were swapped 8/13/83: #38 should be "It's Inevitable" by Charlie but they played "Pieces Of Ice" by Diana Ross, which dropped out of the Top 40 that week, instead 9/1/84: #12 and #15 were swapped 12/15/84: #22 and #23 were swapped No idea if there are other similar incidents. For 12/15/84, the two songs in question were "Hello Again" by the Cars (correct position: #22) and "You're the Inspiration" by Chicago (correct position: #23). This may explain why the Ultimate Music Database has them transposed from that point forward in their chart runs.
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Post by kchkwong on Jul 7, 2015 19:38:28 GMT -5
Also, the 1975 Year End countdown has #6 to #74 not matching that of Billboard because Some Kind Of Wonderful was played at #6!
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Post by djjoe1960 on Jul 7, 2015 19:49:22 GMT -5
By the way, the fluidity of the 1974 and 1975 Billboard charts are also reflected in the Cash Box and Record World charts of the same period. The number of Top 10's and Number 1's during that period are greatly increased during that two year time frame, compared to the rest of the decade.
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