A sad commentary on state of domestic radio shows

[Deleted]

I have been debating whether I should write this or not. Now that I have commited to do so I will probably post it in other places than just here.

This is not a commentary on the music heard, the stations that air them, nor the few media conglomorates which own the majority of radio stations across the country. It is on us the listening audience of the United States of America.

What do American Top 40, Casey's Top 40, The US Music Survey, American Country Countdown, and Country Top 40 all have in common besides being countdown shows? The answer is all of them have proven to the people whom the shows matter to the most, us in the states; the hosts of these shows are more important than the chart, history, and tradition of the program itself. Sadly, out of this mentality has been born it's first true, and permanent casualty.

We know the story of ABC and it's stupid failure whether intentionally or not, to not resign Casey Kasem in 1988. Which led Casey to Westwood One and the creation of the show which would help to bring his original creation American Top 40 to it's death in 1995. We all now get to watch that very story play out yet again step by step as ABC's inability to resign or negotiate to a middle ground Bob Kingsley, who's new show Country Top 40 has pretty much blown away American Country Countdown after only 3 weeks of being on the air.

In 1998, Casey Kasen left WW1 for the AM/FM Radio Networks and restart American Top 40. The show which bore his name on Westwood One could not survive under any circumstances when the host IS the show in name and voice. While it flamed out immediately when Casey restarted AT40, to me that is not really a casualty. They didn't even attempt to put up a fight by having a show after AT40 restarted, so it to me was just ended.

The casualty now I see is the US Music Survey. Dick Clark suffered a stroke in 2004, but the show fought on for survival. In the face of many affiliates dropping the show, Mark Wahllengren and USRN kept at it, producing new shows week after week. But, when it became obvious that Dick Clark was not going to be able to return, the decision was made to cease distribution of the program. Effectively killing it off. All the history, all of the tradition over the years of that show is now apart of radio history. That's sad, very sad. I was never a listener of the show much primarily because the show never aired here. But the few times I heard it with Wahllengren over the last year was very acceptable for a radio show. I thought he did a good job and could have in time even after the exodus in stations could have been seen in a few years as a suitable host and stations would have begun picking up the show again.

What would have happened had Ryan Seacrest not become radio's next biggest thing? When Casey left AT40 for good this time, would it have died in the US all over again? I can already see Dees's show going the way of Casey's Top 40 because the show is so built around him.

Why do we in America only see the person, and not the show? I hope in 20 years I, or someone else, isn't writing about the demise of radio shows altogether because we fail to see the show for what they are.

[BrettVW]

I don't know, but I am definately guilty of this. When Ryan debuted as host of AT40, the first thing I did was find a way to hear Casey again on AT20 (and thanks to WKDD picking up the show, there was only two weekends I was without Casey on Norteast Ohio radio). Sure, I still listen to AT40 with Ryan from time to time, but I listen to whatever Casey is hosting religiously. If Casey started hosting a country or urban show, I would most likely stick with Casey rather than the show.

I'll have to go ask the psychology department just why that is!

[Deleted]

brettvw said:

I don't know, but I am definately guilty of this. When Ryan debuted as host of AT40, the first thing I did was find a way to hear Casey again on AT20 (and thanks to WKDD picking up the show, there was only two weekends I was without Casey on Norteast Ohio radio). Sure, I still listen to AT40 with Ryan from time to time, but I listen to whatever Casey is hosting religiously. If Casey started hosting a country or urban show, I would most likely stick with Casey rather than the show.

I'll have to go ask the psychology department just why that is!

So am I, we ALL are guilty of it. Doesnt make it any less sad for the radio shows and all of their history that are dissappearing because of it.

[BROWNJB1]

I agree with you 100% Paul, but enough already with the "SAD" word.

[Jeffster]

I'm a little confused here, Paul, are you saying I should listen to ACC with Kix Brooks because the show is more important than the host?

[Deleted]

God no!!!

[BrettVW]

I was thinking about this today, and thought of it in this way.

Picture a favorite TV show or movie. The story is crucial to whether or not you find the program enjoyable, but the actors and actresses are what end up "making it". Example, if your favorite show is "Late Night with Conan O'Brien" (mine)....the humor and writing are definately an important aspect of the show. However, if it was someone besides Conan hosting the show, it would simply not be the same.

While the show "name" is important...the host does end up sealing the deal. If you notice, when actors choose to leave a TV show, 9 times out of 10 the show is cancelled. Imagine "Seinfeld" still going on today with 4 different people and storylines. It would be a completely different show. Fortunately, new shows are always coming up.

Some show "names" remain fixtures, such as American Top 40 and The Tonight Show and have the ability to withstand host changes, etc. However, many programs such as Dick Clark's US Music Survey, Seinfeld, Rick Dees Weekly Top 40, or Frasier are simply so defined by the host or star that it just doesn't make sense to continue them once the original main star or host is no longer doing their thing.

Therefore, I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing for one to be so fixated on a host. I think it is only human nature, and quite frankly shows are what they are BECAUSE of the host.

[Matt Cameron]

I'll admit I stopped listening to AT40 when Casey stepped down. I then started looking for ways to hear Casey on his other shows. He was and always will be that show to me.
The Tonight Show will always be associated with Carson to me. What's on now is Jay Leno's show, no resemblance to what Carson was doing to me at all.
Other than daytime soaps, which seem to turn the majority of their casts over every few years, I can only think of one dramatic series that's been able to withstand constant cast changes, both major and minor: Law & Order. That is the exception to the rule for me, the only case I can think of where it's the writing and the format that are the stars, not the stars themselves.
Quite frankly, as fractured as radio is these days, I'm surprised that any countdown shows can survive.

[robert]

Hey guys, if it helps you easier to get asleep, don't woryy, it's not US specific as you might think. The same things happen in Europe as well.

[Adrian]

All the more the reason why I respect Casey and agreed when he chose not to mention that he was leaving AT40 first in August 1988, and then in January 2004. He mentioned in an interview that he didn't know why he does that, but I think Casey intuitively understands how the persona of a radio host can overwhelm what the purpose of the show is about. While Casey tried his best to remind us that the show is about the music and the stories behind the music, he can't avoid the fact that his show was the success in large part due to him. So his only recourse is to push away any attention aimed towards him. That is why you hardly hear him say things like how great a song this is, or that it's his favorite, etc. No corny jokes, no "what I did this past week", etc. And that is the power of the draw towards his shows. He comes across as a genuine person who can relate the music to us listeners.

I doubt radio shows will cease to exist in 20 years from now. Their primary function is entertainment, and with the mentality of all programmers today, so long as they can find the shows to fit the personality (and vice versa), the shows will succeed in various forms of incarnations. And there are plenty of those waiting and wanting to be discovered as the "next brand new thing", eh, i mean "person".

[Scott Lakefield]

The show is most DEFINITELY about the host, and this is particularly evident when it comes to Casey Kasem.

When Casey left AT40 in 1988 (actually, it was ABC's conscious decision to not renew his contract as they wanted a younger, "hipper" host), it was quickly realized that trying to do the same show with a different host wasn't going to work. So, fast forward to January 1989 and you really heard AT40 morph into "The Shadoe Stevens Show" with all kinds of bells and whistles and whatnot. Nothing against Shadoe, it was just different. Meantime, to amplify the same point, "Casey's Top 40" also debuted that January, and sounded pretty much the way AT40 did on 8/6/88. Why? Because the show was about CASEY, and AT40 was now about SHADOE. I enjoyed both shows, but "CT40" was in effect the one that I had been listening to for years and "AT40" was effectively a "new" show.

When Casey left WW1 and thus "Casey's Top 40" ceased, he demonstrated yet again that the show was about HIM when the "new" AT40 debuted in March of 1998. That show sounded vastly different from the previous AT40 show, dated 1/28/95.

Fast forward one more time to 1/11/04 when Ryan Seacrest took over as host of AT40. Once again, you had a VASTLY different-sounding show than you had on 1/4/04. You had a host that was chosen because his style is completely different from Casey's, and that's the appeal that they were going for. Ryan sounds a LOT different hosting "American Top 40 with Ryan Seacrest" than he ever did GUEST-hosting "American Top 40 with Casey Kasem." Like I said about Shadoe, this is nothing against Ryan...he's just a different person with a different personality and a different style.

Now, let me say that I these days hardly listen to AT40. Ryan does a good job, don't get me wrong. But the music just isn't happening for me in general on AT40. But here again is the difference for me in regards to Casey Kasem...if Casey were playing those same rap records that I just can't stand right now, I'd at the very least listen to a "scoped" version of the show with the music cut out so that I could hear Casey.

And this is the exact point where I believe the ball was dropped by all THREE networks...the countdown king is Casey Kasem. That is and always will be the case. While I understand (and as a radio professional, in certain respects I support) the idea of going for a show with a "younger" feel, I believe that that show should NOT have been called AT40...either in 1988 or in 2004. Rather, call them something like "The Shadoe Stevens Show" or "The Ryan Seacrest Show" (though I'd suggest something "sexier"), but NOT AT40.

In the 2004 host-change case, you had a Hot AC version of the show created less than a year later. Thus, I would have done things as follows:

* Fold "American Top 40 CHR with Casey Kasem." Replace with "Ryan's Top 40 with Ryan Seacrest" (or whatever you want to call it)
* Fold "American Top 20 with Casey Kasem" and create "American Top 40 HAC with Casey Kasem."

In doing these two moves, you accomplish two goals that Premiere had also accomplished the way they did the move in 2004:

1) Remove Casey from CHR radio with which it was getting harder to identify him with
2) Create a top 40 countdown for HAC radio

You also accomplish a THIRD thing with my scenario, and one that Premiere DID NOT accomplish...that is, you keep Casey Kasem associated with the brand that HE created..."American Top 40."

[Deleted]

Only problem I have with your scenario is looking to the future. When Casey is no longer hosting the show, then what? You have screwed yourself by moving it to the HAC format, removing it from CHR totally, and having the young brash host with his own show. Would you want the brand to continue? One thing I think we forget is Casey Kasem himself would have wanted things this way. He never wanted to be the focal point of the shows. He wanted the shows to live beyond him and under your scenario I dont see that having ever been able to happen.

[Karstens]

There has always been bad music on AT40.

For example, in June 1980, I listened to the show (back then) & found 14 songs I didn’t like. I listened to year-end end countdown of 1978 on KDWB & WLS and picked the station had the better song, kinda a game of who had the better countdown with a point for a better song. Thus, the good/bad song division on AT40 was a natural progression a couple years later.

Simply put, I never cared for the AT40 charts because what I wanted high was low or vise versa. Sure, maybe I was picky when it came to music. Therefore, I do not subscribe to the theory that rap music is the reason why you don’t listen to the current version of AT40 on a regular basis.

Why would anyone listen to something they didn’t like? It’s not the music; it’s the information between the music. Casey always gave you a reason to listen. If you missed the show, you missed something valuable.

Shadoe Stevens, I couldn’t stand his delivery (in the day) and found him boring and annoying. However, I still listened because he still brought something to the table, information of value about artists and chart facts. By this time, I wanted Dees because I found him much more listenable and entertaining & still VAULABLE.

However, Casey was nowhere to be heard where I lived from 1991-98, so the third option was not available. To me, AT40 going dark was a good thing and every Sunday morning I was a Dees’ listener from 1994-98.

AT40’s return was like catching up with a long lost friend that you hadn’t heard from in 10 years. It was great!!! Casey was not entertaining but informative, a true asset to the CHR community. You could actually learn something listening to Pop radio. Amazing!!!

A lot of long-time AT40 fans seem to be giving Seacrest a pass by saying that he’s doing a heckva good job without listening every week. IMO, the fact is he’s not!!! I will not one-word culture him.

Let’s go deep…what is a good job? Content, content, content!!! It’s not his voice, the jingles or Seacrest’s star power interviews. What information is valuable or something you feel that worthy of investing four hours over the weekend. We learn a tidbit here and there and that’s it.

Pick any AT40 show that’s he had done and let’s look at good & bad points. I find 35 bad points and 5 good. This is a lot worse than 26-14 in 1980. Is five points really worth a listen? For a junkie like me, it’s a maybe. However, the show is going into a sleaze bucket.

The switch I see isn’t the music but the focus on the female listener. Remember when, AT40 was going for the male listeners like yourself and majority of posters on this website. Those days are long time gone.

Today it’s: What movies/songs I like(d), Hollywood interviews of non-countdown stars, and “who are you dating?” along with “d**n he’s HOT”. I’m sorry that’s where he’s losing the old audience.

Is there a feud between Paris & Nicole? Vs. What’s A Pipkin? A lot has changed since 1970’s original concept. Good content will always be valuable to the listener.

[BrettVW]

Interesting take, Karstens...one thing I have learned alot about in the last year both in class and now working at a Hot AC station is the whole "female listening target" that the formats of all of the countdown shows really aim for. CHR/Pop, Hot AC, and AC radio are all female targeted formats. Yet this forum is all guys (at least to my knowledge). So there is obviously something hooking us. Granted, I have always liked Hot AC music and listen to Hot AC radio during the week. But the one thing Casey has always been able to do is break down the gender bias of the format and appeal to all listeners.

You also talked about how Casey is both entertaining, informative, and it's like catching up with a friend every weekend, whereas Ryan's show is filled with fluff. While we can all argue to no end what is better for the CHR format...one thing is for sure... there is a reason I make it a point to dedicate part of my weekend listening to Casey every weekend, whereas I will turn Ryan on for a few minutes here or there if I have time.

[Scott Lakefield]

karstens said:

Let’s go deep…what is a good job? Content, content, content!!! It’s not his voice, the jingles or Seacrest’s star power interviews. What information is valuable or something you feel that worthy of investing four hours over the weekend. We learn a tidbit here and there and that’s it.

Welcome to music radio, circa 2006. In today's "short-attention span" culture, stations are programmed with the mentality of "more music, less talk." Why? Mostly because radio is trying to compete with new technologies such as Ipods by trying to BECOME those technologies. Best case in point is WCBS-FM here in New York City. That was a personality-driven radio station up until June of 2005, and was one of the top 10 stations in this market. However, seeing the trend toward more and more people using Ipods, the station switched to the "Jack" format, aka radio's answer to the Ipod. I don't listen to radio for the sake of JUST hearing my favorite songs. If I want that, I can listen to *my* Ipod, which is loaded with about 1600 of *my* favorite songs...so no matter the mix, I'm not going to come up with a song that I don't like. The same can't be said for "Jack" stations, which aren't being programmed by the individual listener, and therefore cannot compete with the individual listener's Ipods based on music alone. So how *DO* stations compete with Ipods and the like? Simple. They need to give listeners *something else* to come to the party for. And that something else is PERSONALITY. A DJ giving some information about a song or artist (ala Casey). Weather, traffic, news...other service elements. Etc. etc., you get the point. However, I think many radio programmers today DO NOT get this point.

So, thus, you have the Ryan Seacrest era of AT40. I have said on this forum that I think Ryan is doing a good job but...and I think this is the important part...he's doing a good job hosting the show that AT40 has BECOME. This isn't the AT40 of *our* childhoods. You've got the "No nuttin's" in there because of the idea of "more music, less talk." You've got the non-countdown-artist-related interviews because radio programmers believe that this is what their "target" audience wants to hear. That all said...Ryan does a good job of handling these elements...but what he's hosting is NOT "American Top 40," hence my earlier post stating that the show should instead be called "Ryan's Top 40" or something like that.

And to address another poster's point that my "AT40 HAC with Casey Kasem" would kill the AT40 brand when Casey was no longer able to do the show, that's precisely my point. I know Casey wants the brand to continue. But with all due respect to Casey, I just don't think it serves AT40 well historically to continue the brand...there's so much wonderful AT40 history thanks to Casey that the "wannabe" show that now "masquerades" under the name AT40 is detracting from that. Again, this is NOTHING whatsoever against Ryan or his staff...they do a great job at what they do. But like I said...it's just NOT "American Top 40." Nor was "American Top 40 with Shadoe Stevens."

karstens said:

The switch I see isn’t the music but the focus on the female listener. Remember when, AT40 was going for the male listeners like yourself and majority of posters on this website. Those days are long time gone.

All radio these days seems to be going for a female listener. But here your argument falls down somewhat...no format is geared more towards a female listener than AC. And Casey is still on AC radio doing the same format he's done for years...a countdown.