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Post by OnWithTheCountdown on May 1, 2020 16:16:10 GMT -5
It may not have been a BB #1 hit, but in my mind it's a #1. That's one of my favorite Elton songs from the 1970s.
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Post by lasvegaskid on Jul 25, 2020 13:23:45 GMT -5
I've mentioned this in another post, but any Billboard chart from (at the latest) 1975 - April of 1983 was suspect because of Billboard's chart director. I haven't read Harris's book so I can't comment on his perspective; but Fredric Dannen put out a great book in 1990 called "Hit Men." It dealt mostly with the "pay to play" philosophy of radio stations and record companies, but there's also information on chart manipulation. Dannen wrote about an incident involving Al Coury, who was an executive from RSO records. Coury was determined to get "If I Can't Have You" to number one. So, he flew out to a convention Billboard was putting on in Venice with that goal in mind. Coury met with Bill Wardlow, chart director for Billboard. Coury wined and dined him and rented a yacht for them to sail on. When Coury's aide questioned why they were spending so much time on this one guy, Coury told him who Wardlow was and that he was doing this to ensure "If I Can't Have You" went to #1. Dannen end's the paragragh with "Next week, Yvonne Elliman was number one." Certainly that could be an explanation for why "The Closer I Get To You" peaked at #2. As to the "Baker Street" "Shadow Dancing" incident. I've never seen anything in print on this, but on the Cashbox website there's a segment on Gerry Rafferty. www.cashboxmagazine.com/news525.htmlThe story says that "Baker Street" actually was #1 on the chart Billboard sent them, but 15 minutes later they got an updated chart with "Shadow Dancing" back at #1. AT40 staffers are mentioned in the story; but again, I've never seen any printed evidence of this story. Knowing Wardlow's modus operandi, however, it wouldn't surprise me. I don't know what the big deal was in letting Gerry go to #1 for one week. In fact, it might have made it more dramatic when Shadow Dancing returned to the top the next panel. I can hear Casey hard selling it: and now returning to #1, here is the sensational Andy Gibb.... |
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Post by bobbo428 on Jul 25, 2020 15:36:45 GMT -5
I am enjoying all of these posts about chart manipulations--I came up with a new word, Wardlowizing, the phenomenon of when a song gets stuck in a holding pattern, and then plunges off a cliff. I wonder if any songs would have reached the top 10 but were barred because of the dumb star rules.
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Post by Michael1973 on Jul 31, 2020 13:19:34 GMT -5
I am enjoying all of these posts about chart manipulations--I came up with a new word, Wardlowizing, the phenomenon of when a song gets stuck in a holding pattern, and then plunges off a cliff. I wonder if any songs would have reached the top 10 but were barred because of the dumb star rules. I think this is almost a certainty. Just look at the R&R charts during the Wardlow era and see how many songs that peaked in the 11-20 range on Billboard hit the top 10, or even the top 5. |
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Post by OnWithTheCountdown on Jul 31, 2020 13:41:35 GMT -5
I'm not as familiar with the R&R charts during the Wardlow era, since that was before either CT40 or WT40 existed. I do know some songs hit #1 on R&R that stalled at #2 on BB, like "Waiting For A Girl Like You" and "Open Arms". It'd be interesting to see how the songs rank on a year-end chart using AT40's 1982 method for 1980-1983.
I know Vince has done several versions of year-end charts on here, but IIRC, I don't think any include R&R data.
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Post by Michael1973 on Jul 31, 2020 13:46:00 GMT -5
I'm not as familiar with the R&R charts during the Wardlow era, since that was before either CT40 or WT40 existed. I do know some songs hit #1 on R&R that stalled at #2 on BB, like "Waiting For A Girl Like You" and "Open Arms". Off the top of my head, I believe Gypsy and It's Raining Again hit the top 5 on R&R. Only Time Will Tell might have also. There were a bunch of others like this. I'll have to look it up when I have a bit more time. |
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Post by Hervard on Jul 31, 2020 13:50:54 GMT -5
I'm not as familiar with the R&R charts during the Wardlow era, since that was before either CT40 or WT40 existed. I do know some songs hit #1 on R&R that stalled at #2 on BB, like "Waiting For A Girl Like You" and "Open Arms". Off the top of my head, I believe Gypsy and It's Raining Again hit the top 5 on R&R. Only Time Will Tell might have also. There were a bunch of others like this. I'll have to look it up when I have a bit more time. All of the above hit the Top Five on R&R, but missed the Top Ten on the Hot 100. "Only Time Will Tell" got as high as #5 in September, 1982. "It's Raining Again" hit #2, edged out of #1 by "Maneater". Finally, "Gypsy" not only hit the Top Five but managed to hit #1 for a week. I found it amazing that, despite this, it ran out of steam at #12 on the Hot 100. |
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Post by mkarns on Jul 31, 2020 14:12:33 GMT -5
Off the top of my head, I believe Gypsy and It's Raining Again hit the top 5 on R&R. Only Time Will Tell might have also. There were a bunch of others like this. I'll have to look it up when I have a bit more time. All of the above hit the Top Five on R&R, but missed the Top Ten on the Hot 100. "Only Time Will Tell" got as high as #5 in September, 1982. "It's Raining Again" hit #2, edged out of #1 by "Maneater". Finally, "Gypsy" not only hit the Top Five but managed to hit #1 for a week. I found it amazing that, despite this, it ran out of steam at #12 on the Hot 100. Re "Gypsy", part of the difference can probably be explained by people buying the album instead of the single (the "Mirage" album was #1 for five weeks in Aug/Sept and then held at #2 for about two months after that), but not all of it. I think it should have at least gone top 10, maybe top 5 without the weird Billboard rules and resulting movements (and nonmovements) at the time. Incidentally, the week "Gypsy" hit #1 in Radio & Records, Glenn Frey's "The One You Love" peaked at #2 behind it. TOYL only hit #15 in Billboard. |
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Post by Mike on Jul 31, 2020 16:13:26 GMT -5
Re "Gypsy", part of the difference can probably be explained by people buying the album instead of the single (the "Mirage" album was #1 for five weeks in Aug/Sept and then held at #2 for about two months after that), but not all of it. For that matter, that would also explain the album's third single, "Love in Store" going to #9 in R&R but stopping at #22 in Billboard. Then again, a side-by-side of the Mac's singles up through this era reveals that every single last one peaked higher in R&R than in Billboard. Technically even "Dreams", as while that went to #1 in both, it only spent the one week there in BB versus four in R&R. Actually, that could be applicable to their entire output save for 1987's "Little Lies" (two weeks at #4 on both charts). Though I don't count "Silver Springs" as that was in 1997 and didn't have a commercial single issued, thus couldn't appear on the Hot 100. But the disparity is most noticeable on the two Mirage singles mentioned as well as "Think About Me" (#9 R&R, #20 Billboard). |
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Post by LC on Sept 3, 2020 8:08:25 GMT -5
Bill was fired in April 1983, replaced by Thomas Noonan (creator of the Hot 100) on 4/30/83. I think that's when the chart settled down with holding patterns abolished, etc. 1) What took them so long? 2) Didn't they know what he was doing? |
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Post by doofus67 on Sept 3, 2020 9:35:41 GMT -5
Bill was fired in April 1983, replaced by Thomas Noonan (creator of the Hot 100) on 4/30/83. I think that's when the chart settled down with holding patterns abolished, etc. 1) What took them so long? 2) Didn't they know what he was doing? 1) We may never know. 2) We may never know. |
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Post by djjoe1960 on Sept 3, 2020 15:43:59 GMT -5
Off the top of my head, I believe Gypsy and It's Raining Again hit the top 5 on R&R. Only Time Will Tell might have also. There were a bunch of others like this. I'll have to look it up when I have a bit more time. All of the above hit the Top Five on R&R, but missed the Top Ten on the Hot 100. "Only Time Will Tell" got as high as #5 in September, 1982. "It's Raining Again" hit #2, edged out of #1 by "Maneater". Finally, "Gypsy" not only hit the Top Five but managed to hit #1 for a week. I found it amazing that, despite this, it ran out of steam at #12 on the Hot 100. A better comparison would be how the songs did in Cash Box or Record World--or both when they still existed; since Billboard was a combination of radio airplay and sales.
Radio & Records was airplay only.
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Post by artsmusic on Sept 3, 2020 17:52:31 GMT -5
Off the top of my head, I believe Gypsy and It's Raining Again hit the top 5 on R&R. Only Time Will Tell might have also. There were a bunch of others like this. I'll have to look it up when I have a bit more time. All of the above hit the Top Five on R&R, but missed the Top Ten on the Hot 100. "Only Time Will Tell" got as high as #5 in September, 1982. "It's Raining Again" hit #2, edged out of #1 by "Maneater". Finally, "Gypsy" not only hit the Top Five but managed to hit #1 for a week. I found it amazing that, despite this, it ran out of steam at #12 on the Hot 100. We are all so focused on manipulations on Billboard's part. In what universe was Supertramp's "It's Raining Again" a #2 hit? Even with airplay only, that seems a S-T-R-E-T-C-H. I doubt Fleetwood Mac was selling a ton of singles in the early '80s after Rumors and Tusk LPs, so the airplay/R&R chart difference makes sense to me at least. |
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Post by Mike on Sept 3, 2020 19:46:37 GMT -5
I doubt Fleetwood Mac was selling a ton of singles in the early '80s after Rumors and Tusk LPs, so the airplay/R&R chart difference makes sense to me at least. See my post about this above - every single last one of their singles peaked lower or spent less time at their peak in Billboard than in R&R. Even "Dreams" counts for this - just a single week atop BB versus 4 weeks atop R&R. (1987's "Little Lies" is the only one to even manage a tie: Two weeks at #4 in both places.) |
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Post by johnnywest on Sept 3, 2020 22:00:02 GMT -5
I am enjoying all of these posts about chart manipulations--I came up with a new word, Wardlowizing, the phenomenon of when a song gets stuck in a holding pattern, and then plunges off a cliff. I wonder if any songs would have reached the top 10 but were barred because of the dumb star rules. I think this is almost a certainty. Just look at the R&R charts during the Wardlow era and see how many songs that peaked in the 11-20 range on Billboard hit the top 10, or even the top 5. I remember Casey doing an introduction on a song that was spending a record number of weeks at #3. And after hearing that, the first thing that came to mind was Bill Wardlow. |
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