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Post by matt on Oct 30, 2019 9:23:09 GMT -5
Casey just answered a question on the 12/15/79 show about whether the 4 solo Beatles ever were in the top 40 together. First of all, he said, "The first thing the AT40 staff thought was why would someone send in a question that was sure to get no for an answer." Seems strange that they would think that when something like this should be well known. Anyway, Casey then answered it by saying yes it happened for 2 weeks in January 1975. Did not mention that it also happened for that one week in Dec. 1974 because of the chart movement highlighted above. Could it be that AT40 in association with Billboard had acknowledged that it was indeed chart chicanery back then? BTW, this question being answered on the 12/15/79 show is exactly 5 years after the week in question but no mention was made of it. I just finished a little research on the this little chart phenomenon (the infamous Fab 4 solo hits) and found that Cash Box had the 4 Beatles in the Top 40 for the week ending December 7, 1974 and I wonder if that lead to Billboard making sure it happened on their chart the following week (December 14, 1974). Although, after a little detective work, Billboard may have been correct as those 4 songs were in the Top 40 on the Record World chart that week and were in the Top 40 on the Radio & Records chart, as well.
Here are the chart positions for the week ending December 7, 1974: Whatever Gets You Through the Night-John Lennon (#40-BB/#22-RW/#18-R&R/#38-CB) Dark Horse-George Harrison (#43-BB/#37-RW/NOC-R&R/#33-CB) Only You-Ringo Starr (#25-BB/#33-RW/#24-R&R/#15-CB) Junior's Farm-Paul McCartney & Wings (#12-BB/#9-RW/#10-R&R/#11-CB)
Here are the chart positions for December 14, 1974: Whatever Gets You Through the Night-John Lennon (#40-BB/#37-RW/#22-R&R/#45-CB) Dark Horse-George Harrison (#32-BB/#31-RW/#40-R&R/#29-CB) Only You-Ringo Starr (#18-BB/#25-RW/#13-R&R/#12-CB) Junior's Farm-Paul McCartney & Wings (#10-BB/#6-RW/#6-R&R/#8-CB)
So , while all along many of us suspected that Billboard did this to give Casey something interesting to talk about on AT40--perhaps, the Billboard chart (for that week) accurately showed the popularity of those 4 ex-Beatles tunes.  You make a very interesting point. There will probably always be skepticism surrounding the 12/14/74 chart, simply because it would be understating it to say that it was rare for a song in its tumble out of the top 40 to stop at #40 and hold there for a second week. I would be curious to know if that ever happened on any consecutive Billboard Hot 100's during the chart's history. Without looking, I am almost 100% positive that it never happened on any AT40 chart (note also: I'm not talking about a song spending two straight weeks at #40--that happened a number of times--this is in regard to songs that were top 10 or #1 hits that were dropping out). It somewhat makes me wonder if Cashbox didn't pull a similar shenanigan to score the Beatles "quadfecta" (and maybe beat Billboard to it). It's just hard to believe that it all happened to be a coincidence. But who knows for sure? |
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Post by djjoe1960 on Oct 31, 2019 7:54:36 GMT -5
I just finished a little research on the this little chart phenomenon (the infamous Fab 4 solo hits) and found that Cash Box had the 4 Beatles in the Top 40 for the week ending December 7, 1974 and I wonder if that lead to Billboard making sure it happened on their chart the following week (December 14, 1974). Although, after a little detective work, Billboard may have been correct as those 4 songs were in the Top 40 on the Record World chart that week and were in the Top 40 on the Radio & Records chart, as well.
Here are the chart positions for the week ending December 7, 1974: Whatever Gets You Through the Night-John Lennon (#40-BB/#22-RW/#18-R&R/#38-CB) Dark Horse-George Harrison (#43-BB/#37-RW/NOC-R&R/#33-CB) Only You-Ringo Starr (#25-BB/#33-RW/#24-R&R/#15-CB) Junior's Farm-Paul McCartney & Wings (#12-BB/#9-RW/#10-R&R/#11-CB)
Here are the chart positions for December 14, 1974: Whatever Gets You Through the Night-John Lennon (#40-BB/#37-RW/#22-R&R/#45-CB) Dark Horse-George Harrison (#32-BB/#31-RW/#40-R&R/#29-CB) Only You-Ringo Starr (#18-BB/#25-RW/#13-R&R/#12-CB) Junior's Farm-Paul McCartney & Wings (#10-BB/#6-RW/#6-R&R/#8-CB)
So , while all along many of us suspected that Billboard did this to give Casey something interesting to talk about on AT40--perhaps, the Billboard chart (for that week) accurately showed the popularity of those 4 ex-Beatles tunes. You make a very interesting point. There will probably always be skepticism surrounding the 12/14/74 chart, simply because it would be understating it to say that it was rare for a song in its tumble out of the top 40 to stop at #40 and hold there for a second week. I would be curious to know if that ever happened on any consecutive Billboard Hot 100's during the chart's history. Without looking, I am almost 100% positive that it never happened on any AT40 chart (note also: I'm not talking about a song spending two straight weeks at #40--that happened a number of times--this is in regard to songs that were top 10 or #1 hits that were dropping out). It somewhat makes me wonder if Cashbox didn't pull a similar shenanigan to score the Beatles "quadfecta" (and maybe beat Billboard to it). It's just hard to believe that it all happened to be a coincidence. But who knows for sure? Matt,
Not that I think the Cash Box charts were any more 'accurate' or less susceptible to 'payola' than Billboard--however, at least the chart movements for the week ending December 7, 1974 on the Cash Box chart (as far as the 4 Beatles solo hits are concerned) are more believable--than what happens the following week in Billboard. As you suggest, what is the likelihood of Whatever Gets You Through The Night (by John Lennon) holding at #40, especially after dropping from #21 to 40 the previous week. As I wrote earlier, it was either Billboard's way of giving American Top 40 an interesting story to tell --OR-- was Billboard's way of thumbing their nose at Cash Box (or possibly both). Of Course, we will never know but it has been fun to speculate about all of these chart 'shenanigans'.
Joe
P.S. Plus it gave me something interesting to talk about on an episode of Cash Box Countdown.
Here's the link if you've never listened to the show--
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Post by Michael1973 on Oct 31, 2019 8:19:33 GMT -5
Here's something that's always puzzled me about the bizarro 1982 charts. We know that the massive drops typically happened after a song held at its peak for many weeks, due to the "star" rule, but my question is how a few songs managed a couple of small drops before taking the big plunge. (Hold Me and Take It Away come to mind.) What was the difference in those cases?
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Post by doofus67 on Nov 1, 2019 1:41:24 GMT -5
Here's something that's always puzzled me about the bizarro 1982 charts. We know that the massive drops typically happened after a song held at its peak for many weeks, due to the "star" rule, but my question is how a few songs managed a couple of small drops before taking the big plunge. (Hold Me and Take It Away come to mind.) What was the difference in those cases? Again, it's hard to say without ol' Bill here to explain. This is only a guess, and not an educated one, but if the airplay on the record was still fairly strong after it "lost its star," it would take a little longer to go into free fall. |
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Nov 3, 2019 11:06:56 GMT -5
Bill was fired in April 1983, replaced by Thomas Noonan (creator of the Hot 100) on 4/30/83. I think that's when the chart settled down with holding patterns abolished, etc.
Does anyone know what year / month Bill started managing the Hot 100? That would give us an idea into how long it was a 'less than accurate' chart...
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Post by giannirubino on Nov 3, 2019 12:02:58 GMT -5
Dumb question (or dumb typer) ...
Does falling on the chart with a bullet mean that Bill (or his questionable rules) was not involved?
Off the top of my head, I know that The Commodores retained their bullet for Three Times A Lady, while falling to #2 for the week ending August 26th, that Donna Summer fell to #2 with a bullet for MacArther Park for the week ending December 2, 1978 and that Le Freak by Chic kept its bullet on December 18, 1978, the week after its first week at #1, while YDBMF by B&N which was returning to the top for a 2nd non-consecutive week.
Thank you to anyone who answers.
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Post by doofus67 on Nov 3, 2019 14:41:09 GMT -5
Bill was fired in April 1983, replaced by Thomas Noonan (creator of the Hot 100) on 4/30/83. I think that's when the chart settled down with holding patterns abolished, etc. Does anyone know what year / month Bill started managing the Hot 100? That would give us an idea into how long it was a 'less than accurate' chart... Yes. If you check the masthead of the August 18, 1973, issue, it's the first one to show Willis Wardlow as Associate Publisher. So it took nine months or so for him to really start "working his magic." |
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Post by doofus67 on Nov 6, 2019 2:57:59 GMT -5
Here's something that's always puzzled me about the bizarro 1982 charts. We know that the massive drops typically happened after a song held at its peak for many weeks, due to the "star" rule, but my question is how a few songs managed a couple of small drops before taking the big plunge. (Hold Me and Take It Away come to mind.) What was the difference in those cases? Again, only Mr. Wardlow could really answer that. Other examples: -- "Even the Nights Are Better" peaked at 5, slipped from 5 to 6, then 6 to 42; -- "Somebody's Baby" went 7 to 13 to 49; -- "Vacation" went 8 to 11 to 57; -- "I Ran (So Far Away)" went 9 to 16 to 65; -- "Hooked on Classics" went 10 to 15 to 74; -- "It's Gonna Take a Miracle" went 10 to 15 to 54; -- "You Don't Want Me Anymore" went 16 to 23 to 68; -- "Run for the Roses" went 18 to 23 to 73; -- "Sea of Love" went 33 to 37 to 76; -- "Tell Me Tomorrow" went 33 to 38 to 94; -- and of course, "The Beatles Movie Medley" went 12 to 20 to 92. |
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Post by matt on Nov 6, 2019 11:42:38 GMT -5
Bill was fired in April 1983, replaced by Thomas Noonan (creator of the Hot 100) on 4/30/83. I think that's when the chart settled down with holding patterns abolished, etc. Does anyone know what year / month Bill started managing the Hot 100? That would give us an idea into how long it was a 'less than accurate' chart... Yes. If you check the masthead of the August 18, 1973, issue, it's the first one to show Willis Wardlow as Associate Publisher. So it took nine months or so for him to really start "working his magic." April 1983 was definitely the time when the numerous odd chart occurrences began to subside. It's like things gradually got worse throughout 1982 and early '83, then everything suddenly went back to normal. But it doesn't take much to understand why... Here's something that's always puzzled me about the bizarro 1982 charts. We know that the massive drops typically happened after a song held at its peak for many weeks, due to the "star" rule, but my question is how a few songs managed a couple of small drops before taking the big plunge. (Hold Me and Take It Away come to mind.) What was the difference in those cases? Again, only Mr. Wardlow could really answer that. Other examples: -- "Even the Nights Are Better" peaked at 5, slipped from 5 to 6, then 6 to 42; -- "Somebody's Baby" went 7 to 13 to 49; -- "Vacation" went 8 to 11 to 57; -- "I Ran (So Far Away)" went 9 to 16 to 65; -- "Hooked on Classics" went 10 to 15 to 74; -- "It's Gonna Take a Miracle" went 10 to 15 to 54; -- "You Don't Want Me Anymore" went 16 to 23 to 68; -- "Run for the Roses" went 18 to 23 to 73; -- "Sea of Love" went 33 to 37 to 76; -- "Tell Me Tomorrow" went 33 to 38 to 94; -- and of course, "The Beatles Movie Medley" went 12 to 20 to 92. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for 1982. There were a large number of songs whose drop out of the top 40 included a plummet of 40-60 notches. Then often after the big drop, those songs would level off and take a few weeks to exit the Hot 100 altogether. I get the whole star rule thing, but those types of movements call into serious question the accuracy of the songs' chart positions in relation to their actual sales and replay data. |
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Post by djjoe1960 on Nov 6, 2019 15:43:36 GMT -5
Dumb question (or dumb typer) ... Does falling on the chart with a bullet mean that Bill (or his questionable rules) was not involved?
Off the top of my head, I know that The Commodores retained their bullet for Three Times A Lady, while falling to #2 for the week ending August 26th, that Donna Summer fell to #2 with a bullet for MacArther Park for the week ending December 2, 1978 and that Le Freak by Chic kept its bullet on December 18, 1978, the week after its first week at #1, while YDBMF by B&N which was returning to the top for a 2nd non-consecutive week. Thank you to anyone who answers. I know that the way that 'stars' were awarded (bullets) certainly changed over the years but by the 1970's (the examples you site); 'stars' were awarded when a record gained points (sales or airplay or both) over the previous week. So theoretically a record could gain in points and still get jumped over by another one that gained more points (or had more overall points) in order to become #1 for that week.
One other example was Disco Duck by Rick Dees on October 23, 1976 kept it 'star' as the record went from #1 to #2 and Chicago's If You Leave Me Now went from #4 to #1 that week. Oddly, Disco Duck held at #2 the following week with it's 'star', while Chicago was still at #1.
I don't think that any of these examples are part of (Uncle) Bill's chart weirdness.
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Post by giannirubino on Nov 9, 2019 9:09:23 GMT -5
(If only I could read.)
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mfr
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Post by mfr on Nov 17, 2019 16:33:29 GMT -5
With reference to the effect of 'starred' or 'bulleted' records on chart positions - wasn't it suggested that the presence of singles in a holding period would inevitably prevent lower singles from ever being at their true chart position as they were 'blocked out' to allow the held singles to retain their places?
It may well be that in 1982 the held period was longer than previously so that when a single finally was no longer held it took a bigger drop to its natural position.
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Post by djjoe1960 on May 1, 2020 9:30:08 GMT -5
I always wonder why Good-bye Yellow Brick Road by Elton John never made #1 in Billboard in December 1973. For the week ending December 8, 1973, the song was #1 in Radio & Records (which just started publishing two month earlier in October, 1973)--while the single was #1 that week in both Cash Box & Record World. The song reached #2 in Billboard that week and then held at #2 for two more weeks. The #1's for the three weeks it was #2 were Top Of the World by Carpenters & The Most Beautiful Girl by Charlie Rich.
The one other interesting thing about all of this is that while this battle was underway on the Singles chart, Elton was #1 on the album chart with Yellow Brick Road for November-December of 1973, but that Carpenters The Singles 1969-1973 album replaced Elton at #1 on the LP chart the first week of January 1974.
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Post by chrislc on May 1, 2020 12:40:14 GMT -5
I always wonder why Good-bye Yellow Brick Road by Elton John never made #1 in Billboard in December 1973. For the week ending December 8, 1973, the song was #1 in Radio & Records (which just started publishing two month earlier in October, 1973)--while the single was #1 that week in both Cash Box & Record World. The song reached #2 in Billboard that week and then held at #2 for two more weeks. The #1's for the three weeks it was #2 were Top Of the World by Carpenters & The Most Beautiful Girl by Charlie Rich. The one other interesting thing about all of this is that while this battle was underway on the Singles chart, Elton was #1 on the album chart with Yellow Brick Road for November-December of 1973, but that Carpenters The Singles 1969-1973 album replaced Elton at #1 on the LP chart the first week of January 1974. Joe, my impression from your 60s shows has been that Cash Box skewed a bit more urban and less country than Billboard. If that is accurate then it might have carried over to the 70s and these two country songs had enough to reach #1 in Billboard but not in the others. |
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Post by djjoe1960 on May 1, 2020 16:13:34 GMT -5
I always wonder why Good-bye Yellow Brick Road by Elton John never made #1 in Billboard in December 1973. For the week ending December 8, 1973, the song was #1 in Radio & Records (which just started publishing two month earlier in October, 1973)--while the single was #1 that week in both Cash Box & Record World. The song reached #2 in Billboard that week and then held at #2 for two more weeks. The #1's for the three weeks it was #2 were Top Of the World by Carpenters & The Most Beautiful Girl by Charlie Rich. The one other interesting thing about all of this is that while this battle was underway on the Singles chart, Elton was #1 on the album chart with Yellow Brick Road for November-December of 1973, but that Carpenters The Singles 1969-1973 album replaced Elton at #1 on the LP chart the first week of January 1974. Joe, my impression from your 60s shows has been that Cash Box skewed a bit more urban and less country than Billboard. If that is accurate then it might have carried over to the 70s and these two country songs had enough to reach #1 in Billboard but not in the others. Actually, Chris, Top Of The World made #1 in Cash Box and Most Beautiful Girl made #1 on both Cash Box & Record World (only #2 in R & R)--no my main beef is still with Billboard being the lone hold out on Elton John not getting the top spot with Good-bye Yellow Brick Road. I am sure some of the problem had to do with the person responsible for heading up the chart department at the time (Bill Wardlow). Sadly, since the song didn't reach #1 in Billboard, most AT40 fans don't think of that Elton tune as a #1, either. |
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