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Post by mkarns on Jun 8, 2014 11:35:30 GMT -5
Pre-SoundScan, I'm almost certain that first Paula Abdul and then Mariah Carey successively broke the Lauper/Houston debut LP top 10 record. After SoundScan, don't really care... Paula Abdul's first single, "Knocked Out" peaked at #41, so that would disqualify her. As for Mariah Carey, she tied the debut LP Top 10 record, as she released four songs from her self-titled album (although, inasmuch as all four songs hit #1, her feat would be the most successful of the three). And I agree with you - I stopped believing in the Hot 100 not long after the Soundscan era began. The Soundscan Hot 100 wasn't too bad at first (about 1991-93); I don't think it totally went off the rails until a lot of hit songs that were played on the radio and helped sell a lot of albums weren't released as singles, and so were ignored by the Hot 100. This was epidemic by the mid-90s. However, for my purposes, the main singles chart of record switches from the Hot 100 to Radio & Records at the time of the Soundscan change in November 1991; that's about as good a place to draw a line of demarcation as any.
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Post by mga707 on Jun 8, 2014 11:36:45 GMT -5
Paula Abdul's first single, "Knocked Out" peaked at #41, so that would disqualify her. As for Mariah Carey, she tied the debut LP Top 10 record, as she released four songs from her self-titled album (although, inasmuch as all four songs hit #1, her feat would be the most successful of the three). And I agree with you - I stopped believing in the Hot 100 not long after the Soundscan era began. I don't think that "Knocked Out", or the initial release of "The Way That You Love Me" that followed, disqualifies Paula, since the first release from Whitney's debut LP, "Hold Me" (duet with Teddy Pendergrass), also did not make the top 10, or even the top 40. She had at least four top 10s in a row: "Straight Up", "Forever Your Girl", "Cold Hearted", and the rerelease of "The Way That You Love Me". "If "Opposites Attract" was from the same LP, that makes five. Was "Knocked Out" on the same album, or did she release another album before her breakthrough? ...speking of Whitney's debut LP, I'm surprised that Arista did not rerelease "Hold Me" after the other four singles had established Whitney as a star. I'll bet it would have been a fifth top 10, maybe even a fourth #1.
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Post by Hervard on Jun 8, 2014 11:47:11 GMT -5
Actually, if we're speaking in terms of Hot 100 singles, Paula and Whitney would both be disqualifed, since their first singles indeed did not hit the Top 40. But in terms of Top 40 singles, Paula would have broken the record, as she had five Top Ten singles from Forever Your Girl, including four #1s (if only "(It's Just) The Way That You Love Me" had just had a little more oomph...)
I never knew that "Hold Me" was on Whitney's first album - I always thought it was from Teddy Pendergrass' album from 1984 (which it actually was, but was also placed on Whitney's first album when it was released in early 1985. I, too, think that had they re-released it in 1986, after the success of the other four singles, it would have at least hit the Top Ten. I also don't know why "All At Once" was released only to AC radio (and wasn't there a song called "Thinking Of You" that was an R&B only song)?
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Post by blackbowl68 on Jun 8, 2014 13:18:51 GMT -5
Casey did not say anything about FIRST top 10 hits from a debut album; he just said FOUR top 10 hits from a debut album. (Doesn't matter which ones they were.) So Whitney and Cyndi qualify, with Paula surpassing them at five.
And since people like to bring this up all the time, I find the Hot 100 became MORE credible once it implemented Soundscan & BDS. I saw the writing on the wall in the six months leading up to the change. It was clear to me many songs were charting too high on the Hot 100 because of "artificial airplay." AISB, radio airplay is promotion not popularity. It's the single sales that make the grade. And we all know R&B/hip hop does better in sales than airplay. Plus, AC leaning singles don't start selling until pop radio jumps on them.
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Post by blackbowl68 on Jun 8, 2014 13:28:31 GMT -5
I never knew that "Hold Me" was on Whitney's first album - I always thought it was from Teddy Pendergrass' album from 1984 (which it actually was, but was also placed on Whitney's first album when it was released in early 1985. I, too, think that had they re-released it in 1986, after the success of the other four singles, it would have at least hit the Top Ten. I also don't know why "All At Once" was released only to AC radio (and wasn't there a song called "Thinking Of You" that was an R&B only song)? Arista primarily aimed Whitney Houston to the black music market for the first three singles. They didn't aggressively push her to the pop market until they released "How Will I Know."
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Post by AmericanTop40 on Jun 8, 2014 13:34:14 GMT -5
I find the Hot 100 became MORE credible once it implemented Soundscan & BDS. I saw the writing on the wall in the six months leading up to the change. It was clear to me many songs were charting too high on the Hot 100 because of "artificial airplay." AISB, radio airplay is promotion not popularity. It's the single sales that make the grade. And we all know R&B/hip hop does better in sales than airplay. Plus, AC leaning singles don't start selling until pop radio jumps on them. Popularity could be defined as radio airplay as well no matter the motivation. In chart history we have many examples of songs that reached the Top 40 and no one heard them on the radio, but they sold lots of copies. Like chart enigmas such as "Battle Hymn Of Lt Calley", "I.O.U." or "Teddy Bear". Those may have reached #1 if Soundscan existed, yet they would not be reflective of what people heard on the radio. That is not a positive.
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Post by jmack19 on Jun 8, 2014 13:37:28 GMT -5
Milli Vanilli had 5 Top 10 singles from debut album.
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Post by blackbowl68 on Jun 8, 2014 14:48:44 GMT -5
Popularity could be defined as radio airplay as well no matter the motivation. In chart history we have many examples of songs that reached the Top 40 and no one heard them on the radio, but they sold lots of copies. Like chart eniugmas such as "Battle Hymn Of Lt Calley", "I.O.U." or "Teddy Bear". Those may have reached #1 if Soundscan existed, yet they would not be reflective of what people heard on the radio. That is not a positive. That's what the Hot 100 was originally created for: to measure both sales & airplay. (A compromise.) Airplay gets the record on the chart, but sales is the engine that moves the record up to its peak. When you got a record that is overwhelmingly outselling a "radio favorite," the Hot 100 should be reflecting this. The chart should not be measuring how critically acclaimed the record or artist is. Airplay is not truly reflective of popularity because PDs and DJs pick the records they want to promote on their station(s). If they don't like a record no matter how big it's selling, they won't play it. (That can be construed as banning.) Explain to me how people know to buy these "non-airplay" records if no one is hearing them and why they should not be reflected on the Hot 100.
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Post by AmericanTop40 on Jun 8, 2014 16:30:37 GMT -5
Popularity could be defined as radio airplay as well no matter the motivation. In chart history we have many examples of songs that reached the Top 40 and no one heard them on the radio, but they sold lots of copies. Like chart enigmas such as "Battle Hymn Of Lt Calley", "I.O.U." or "Teddy Bear". Those may have reached #1 if Soundscan existed, yet they would not be reflective of what people heard on the radio. That is not a positive. That's what the Hot 100 was originally created for: to measure both sales & airplay. (A compromise.) Airplay gets the record on the chart, but sales is the engine that moves the record up to its peak. When you got a record that is overwhelmingly outselling a "radio favorite," the Hot 100 should be reflecting this. The chart should not be measuring how critically acclaimed the record or artist is. Airplay is not truly reflective of popularity because PDs and DJs pick the records they want to promote on their station(s). If they don't like a record no matter how big it's selling, they won't play it. (That can be construed as banning.) Explain to me how people know to buy these "non-airplay" records if no one is hearing them and why they should not be reflected on the Hot 100. Even manufactured popularity through airplay picks from the PDs and DJs still need to be reflected on the charts. It's not a secret that in the history of radio the PDs and DJs can play a large part in making or breaking a song. But in most cases the PDs and DJs are playing what listeners want to hear via listener requests and such. Otherwise, no one would listen to their station. Purchasing music is not in itself the whole story. Single sales are a reflection of who purchases music with disposable income. Your sales-based chart would be driven in a large part by youth-based interest, special interest, and novelty songs. Adults also buy more albums, not singles, when they want a song. I like the old Hot 100 where there was a happy medium of all elements and even the records only a few stations played but sold a lot would still find their way in the Top 40 based solely on sales. That's what makes listening to AT40 from the 70's and 80's so enjoyable. It has everything.
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Post by mga707 on Jun 8, 2014 17:20:23 GMT -5
Milli Vanilli had 5 Top 10 singles from debut album. You're right. I had forgotten all about them. Or the actual singers they were pretending to be...
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Post by mga707 on Jun 8, 2014 17:23:51 GMT -5
That's what the Hot 100 was originally created for: to measure both sales & airplay. (A compromise.) Airplay gets the record on the chart, but sales is the engine that moves the record up to its peak. When you got a record that is overwhelmingly outselling a "radio favorite," the Hot 100 should be reflecting this. The chart should not be measuring how critically acclaimed the record or artist is. Airplay is not truly reflective of popularity because PDs and DJs pick the records they want to promote on their station(s). If they don't like a record no matter how big it's selling, they won't play it. (That can be construed as banning.) Explain to me how people know to buy these "non-airplay" records if no one is hearing them and why they should not be reflected on the Hot 100. Even manufactured popularity through airplay picks from the PDs and DJs still need to be reflected on the charts. It's not a secret that in the history of radio the PDs and DJs can play a large part in making or breaking a song. But in most cases the PDs and DJs are playing what listeners want to hear via listener requests and such. Otherwise, no one would listen to their station. Purchasing music is not in itself the whole story. Single sales are a reflection of who purchases music with disposable income. Your sales-based chart would be driven in a large part by youth-based interest, special interest, and novelty songs. Adults also buy more albums, not singles, when they want a song. I like the old Hot 100 where there was a happy medium of all elements and even the records only a few stations played but sold a lot would still find their way in the Top 40 based solely on sales. That's what makes listening to AT40 from the 70's and 80's so enjoyable. It has everything. I don't think either of you are wrong, or even all that far apart.
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Post by blackbowl68 on Jun 8, 2014 23:27:49 GMT -5
I want to make clear that I do not dislike the old Hot 100. Its methodology was the best for its time. But by 1991, Billboard felt it was flawed and had access to more accurate technology to tabulate the big chart. I followed the progression of this inevitable change in the trade. Once it got implemented, it took a little getting used to, but I understood why Billboard did this. I just want to rightfully voice my support for the change. Therefore, the Billboard Hot 100 is my primary source from 1958 to the present.
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Jun 9, 2014 6:35:11 GMT -5
The main thing is that many artists stopped releasing physical singles and that changed things.
My problem with it is the amount of time songs are on the charts and how it skews all time lists. I handicap Soundscan era songs to make it fair. There are older songs that actually could compete if they kept methodology the same over the years.
As for songs in the top 40 for 40+ weeks, I'm not sure how, as most top 40 stations don't keep them in their rotation that long. The kids, especially, get sick of songs by the 4-5 month mark, same as it always has been. That's why stations ran Bee Gee free weekends in the late 70's and Michael Jackson free weekends in 83/84.
I mean, take The Jackson family. Are you telling me that Janet's post 91 output was really more popular than her Control and Rhythm Nation stuff were? Because not handicapping Soundscan stuff makes about every hit before Soundscan below the ones after the change when organized.
Personally, I hate the changes over the years. But it is what it is and I know how to even it out when needed for countdowns so its all good.
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Post by JustTheHits on Jun 9, 2014 11:36:30 GMT -5
The main thing is that many artists stopped releasing physical singles and that changed things. My problem with it is the amount of time songs are on the charts and how it skews all time lists. I handicap Soundscan era songs to make it fair. There are older songs that actually could compete if they kept methodology the same over the years. As for songs in the top 40 for 40+ weeks, I'm not sure how, as most top 40 stations don't keep them in their rotation that long. The kids, especially, get sick of songs by the 4-5 month mark, same as it always has been. That's why stations ran Bee Gee free weekends in the late 70's and Michael Jackson free weekends in 83/84. I mean, take The Jackson family. Are you telling me that Janet's post 91 output was really more popular than her Control and Rhythm Nation stuff were? Because not handicapping Soundscan stuff makes about every hit before Soundscan below the ones after the change when organized. Personally, I hate the changes over the years. But it is what it is and I know how to even it out when needed for countdowns so its all good. I have to agree with this. It's just a shame that Billboard changed their methodology so drastically. Soundscan killed it for me and other chart enthusiasts. Looking at 2004, for example, when Usher held the top spot for 12 weeks with "Yeah" replaced by a 7 week stay of his song "Burn". The songs were good in their own rights but to compare them with songs like "Light My Fire", "My Sweet Lord", & "Jack And Diane" as examples where these stayed on top for 3-4 weeks it becomes pointless. Did "Burn" or "Yeah" for that matter really have a bigger impact on hit radio than "Jack & Diane"? I don't think so. bestmusicexpert I am curious on what formula you use to level out the playing field so you can compare music from both eras.
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Post by jamie9012 on Jun 9, 2014 11:36:39 GMT -5
I really liked the Episode from 1972 yesterday. I wonder which of these records I would buy if I had been alive?
I have listened to the old American Top 40 Episodes since 2011, and, from my experiences, this episode seemed to be a mixture of the late 1960s/early 1970s and the mid 1970s. Although many groups and singers from the 1960s appeared in this Episode, the selection of Songs seemed somehow different from the year before. An episode from May of 1971 that I heard recently made me think more of the Music from the 1960s.
The song "Taxi" featured an interesting story, and "Rocket Man" is a classic.
When I heard the songs "Oh Girl" and "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face", I played along on my guitar. I would like to work on those songs more.
Finally, I have loved the song at #1, "I'll Take You There", for a long time.
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