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Post by mstgator on Sept 9, 2011 18:10:01 GMT -5
Here's something you guys might not have seen. It's one of the reasons in the digital download era that we may have been able to try to compare the pre-'91 charts to the post-'91s....but we can't compare EITHER to the digital current reality. On this week's Hot 100, Lil Wayne has EIGHT songs join three that were already charted. 1/10+ of the chart is Lil Wayne. Surely any/all of the popular artists of the past whose albums were pieced out would have had as many entries. Not just the Beatles and Elvis, but the Madonnas, MJs and any other super hot artists could likely have had 10 entries. Thought you guys should know ! Maybe I'm just naive to all of this. Back when Billboard used sales to help tabulate their charts (I'm talking back in the 70's and 80's now) was it just singles and 45's or did actual album sales somehow count towards the single on the chart as well since it could easily be assumed that someone bought the album to hear the song? I always assumed entire album sales were figured in. This leads to this issue with the digital download deal. Digital downloads of singles count for that song. Digital sownloads of the albums count for that song. Digital downloads of others that are not released, don't. Full album sales have never been figured into the Hot 100, even the current version. For the most part only sales of individual tracks count toward the Hot 100 (whether it be someone downloading one, two, or twelve tracks, etc). This is why you'll see some artists have MANY songs listed on the Hot 100 for the first week an album is released, as buyers cherry-pick certain tracks. If someone actually selects "Buy Album" though, it only counts toward the Album chart. (The exception would be a digital single with multiple mixes of the same song, which gives you the option to "Buy Album"... that counts toward the singles chart.)
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Post by marv101 on Sept 9, 2011 20:18:57 GMT -5
Sorry, but that assertion for me at least doesn't pass the straight face test; 'amplifying' the chart accomplishments of Elvis and the Beatles would be a megacolossal waste of time, Soundscan or no Soundscan.
Their respective places in the history books are well deserved, and bound to be secure forever, as opposed to the overwhelming majority of pop tarts and a handful of producers who've sucked all of the life out of the format in recent years.
Those of us who grew up listening to thought-provoking songs such as 'Eve Of Destruction', 'Positively 4th Street', and thousands of others, as well as superb story songs such as 'Taxi' certainly realize how mediocre the music at top 40 radio has been for several years.
Suffice it to say that blistering social commentary songs ranging from Don Fardon's 'Indian Reservation' in 1968 to 'Cat's In The Cradle' to Glenn Frey's blistering 'I've Got Mine' have no place on today's top 40 radio either.
Thank goodness for these countdown shows, which will also never go away.
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Post by dukelightning on Sept 10, 2011 8:09:57 GMT -5
Here is an excerpt of an article that should be of interest on this subject regarding WNCI in Columbus, Ohio. Casey Kasem tried to renegotiate a contract with the shows' distributors but the talks broke down. Without much notice, WNCI listeners heard a new host on August 13, 1988 by the name of Shadow Stevens. It was quite a shocker. A countdown show without Casey? It seemed to be the new reality so we had to try and accept it as fans. Casey was out of teh countdown business. But not for long. He started a new show called Casey's Top 40 in January 1989. Although much was reported about Casey's new show, WNCI stayed loyal to the AT40 brand and stuck with the show. Around this time WNCI had begun positioning itself as a Hot AC station - meaning they played the most popular songs on the charts - but eliminated country, heavy metal and songs representing the new hip-hop movement. Meanwhile, these songs sold millions. Since AT40 used the Billboard single sales chart, the show was forced to air these problematic songs (such as "One" by Metallica and songs by Slaughter, Guns 'N Roses, AC/DC and many rap artists). Therefore, it was pretty amusing to hear WNCI use their moniker "Not Too Hard - Not Too Lite", then hear Metallica on your way to church when they debuted on AT40. I didn't catch on that there was a "problem music" scenario concering WNCI until around June 1990. I was reading Billboard when I discovered that "Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground (a catchy but rousing, raunchy dance song) had made it to #11. That meant that I was going to have fun hearing it on WNCI, when they didn't even play that song or anything like it. I was getting ready to leave for church and heard the #12 song. Then a commercial break. I waited and figured I'd have time to hear the Digital Underground song before I left. After that break they were already in the top 10. I assumed it was WNCI that skipped over the #11 song. I had to live with the fact that I was late for church waiting to hear "Humpty Dance" only to have it skipped. WNCI replayed AT40 on Sunday nights. So I listened again and there was my confirmation. Something was up. I learned that stations had the option to delete from the show any song deemed offensive or way out of their format. "Humpty Dance" was both, but I loved the winding bass in that song! Shortly after that, WNCI rang the bells loudly and said that they were going to drop AT40 and air Casey's Top 40 in its place in early 1991. WNCI listeners had long complained about not having Casey Kasem, especially after hearing that he was on in other cities. Casey's show was less problematic with the music, as he used a non-Billboard chart that played songs stations were PLAYING versus songs that were actually SELLING. It made the show less interesting for the music aficionados who wanted to hear regional hits but we got Casey back on WNCI. Meanwhile, AT40 was losing popularity nationally and left the air in July 1994 on the few stations that still aired it. Bumping this up since Humpty Dance is being mentioned on another thread.
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Post by blackbowl68 on Sept 12, 2011 17:47:38 GMT -5
Marv, you just confirmed my statement. From a Billboard chart perspective, what YOU view as "today's pop tarts" are likely gonna the SUPERSTARS of TOMORROW. (Remember, this was said about Madonna in the 1980's; look where her place in pop history is NOW) Just because YOU don't like the popular hits of recent years doesn't mean there's no quality in them against the hits of YOUR era. (And I've heard PLENTY of mediocre music from the 50s, 60s & 70s that make today hits sound like masterpieces!)
To me, Top 40 never died -- it evolved in the 1990s in a manner that no longer appeals to the majority of people writing on this thread. (A sign that you're getting old) Top 40 has ALWAYS been a youth movement, so now the format appeals to your kids. But chart historians want to downgrade or write off this new era as a footnote in history rather than a movement in its own right.
And I'm sorry, Marv, a song like 'Lose Yourself' or "Empire State of Mind' CAN compete on same level as a 'Hound Dog' or 'Hey Jude.'
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Sept 12, 2011 19:03:58 GMT -5
***And I'm sorry, Marv, a song like 'Lose Yourself' or "Empire State of Mind' CAN compete on same level as a 'Hound Dog' or 'Hey Jude.'
Sorry man but Empire State of Mind is a sorry affair where an over ego-fied man talks about:
"I'm The New Sinatra" .... A lie since Frank had talent and Jay-Z cannot sing.
"I made the Yankee hat more famous than any Yankee ever has" ... Now, I'm a Red Sox fan, but it offended me! Um, Derek Jeter? Mickey Mantle? Babe Ruth? Sure, Jay Z, whatever...
Lose Yourself isn't as bad but you are DEAD wrong, when the history books are written, Hey Jude and Hound Dog will be looked upon as masterpieces, Those two.... no, just no.
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Post by michaelcasselman on Sept 12, 2011 19:23:12 GMT -5
To the matter of ego over artistry....
When did the shift occur where artists had to overtly refer to themselves (sometimes even by name in their own lyrics... almost a 'self-awareness' of themselves as a subject matter of their songs) and try to boost their own accomplishments by way of comparisons?
The Beatles never sang about how they were the next Sinatras, nor did Elvis; the Stones, Doors, Journey, Def Leppard, and Nirvana never sand how they were 'the next Beatles'.
The 'Empire State of Mind' example is what I think of when I hear a song that seems as if was meant to be a 'artificial manufactured replacement classic'. When Billy Joel's 'New York State of Mind' was originally released, I don't recall it being hyped to be "the next 'New York, New York'". It organically became a standard associated with NYC, as opposed to having Jay-Z's song rammed down our throat, complete with dated, pop-culture name-dropped lyrics.
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Post by jaxxalude on Sept 12, 2011 19:54:39 GMT -5
We're not gonna start this s**t again, are we?
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Post by matt on Sept 12, 2011 22:03:51 GMT -5
We're not gonna start this s**t again, are we? Hmmm jaxx...are you sure you wanted to come back to this?
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Sept 13, 2011 4:12:36 GMT -5
Didn't NY State Of Mind come out before New York New York?
Jaxx, Blackbowl came to a place where fans of older pop and rock come to discuss them from episodes of Casey's show... He is stirring the nuts again, not us...
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Post by jaxxalude on Sept 13, 2011 5:01:39 GMT -5
Really, "expert"? 'Cause you're the one who always gets in a tizzy whenever hip-hop is discussed. I didn't stir anything. Not even the other time. I just reacted then. And I don't apologize for it. If anything, you should be the one to stop for a minute and reflect on why something so seemingly inoffensive as a style of music provokes such an endemic reaction on your part. But hey, I'm just saying.
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Sept 13, 2011 8:42:39 GMT -5
I didn't have any "tizzy" reaction and wasn't the only one who disagreed, I simply explained why he was wrong in assuming that Empire State Of Mind & Lose Yourself were equals to The Beatles and Elvis songs... You know, it was more peaceful and quiet when you left before, can you two (If in fact you're different people) go spam somewhere else?
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Post by jaxxalude on Sept 13, 2011 10:05:40 GMT -5
We're not gonna start this s**t again, are we? Hmmm jaxx...are you sure you wanted to come back to this? Well, that's why I rhetorically asked. I'm not really in the mood. And I'm sure any sensible person isn't either. Except for the "expert", it seems...
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Post by bestmusicexpert on Sept 13, 2011 10:49:45 GMT -5
Why don't you just go to hell, I answered back (like others did) but due to some unknown reason, you'd like to argue with me. Who knows why, But we really need an ignore feature or something so I don't have to come to a quiet peaceful board and put up with peoples happy horsenuts.
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Post by johnnywest on Sept 13, 2011 15:20:23 GMT -5
The problem with Billboard's current methodology remains that he went on todigital sales have far too much weight as opposed to airplay. As Dick Griffey, the president of SOLAR Records (Whispers/Lakeside/Shalimar) pointed out in a blistering condemnation of BB's Hot 100 in 1980, 'It's A Love Thing' by the Whispers sold 2.2 million copies, in the USA, but barely cracked the top 30 of BBs Hot 100--he went on to say that it should have been a top five record, and he was absolutely correct. So Billboard was intentionally keeping it low on the charts just for the hell of it? Do we know how long it took for "It's A Love Thing" to sell 2.2 million copies? Was that while it was on the charts, or was that over a period of 30+ years? There's a big difference.
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Post by marv101 on Sept 14, 2011 18:33:07 GMT -5
Mr. Griffey was steamed at pointing out that a single which had gone PLATINUM by the end of its chart run barely made the top 100, while other platinum singles which radio played the heck out of, including 'Convoy', 'Le Freak' & 'YMCA' shot to the top of the charts.
There was definitely a huge disconnect between radio, the trades, and the music-buying public back then as far as Mr. Griffey was concerned, and he did have a point when he lit into the powers that be at Billboard.
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