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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 12:29:24 GMT -5
paul and wahoo I think were the ones who commented on this but I was referring to post 1991 when I said that CT40 used R&R. I knew they could not use Billboard because of contractual obligations in 1989. Their choices were R&R and Cashbox therefore and it may very well have been legal/financial issues that determined it rather than what songs were most amenable to their listeners. It is my contention that if given the choice between Cashbox and R&R outside of legal/financial considerations, they would have chosen R&R. Anyone know how and why they chose R&R? I will give 2 possibilities. 1.) If they wanted to differentiate themselves from the others. The question then would be was Rick Dees using Radio & Records by this time or still using Cashbox (I believe I read somewhere he used that chart for awhile) 2.) They didnt have to pay Radio & Records to use it. I don't know if Cashbox charged or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 12:36:54 GMT -5
Now, once Billboard made the switch to Soundscan, Casey and company may have been happy that they were using R&R at that point. It could be argued that event was one of the blows to Shadoe's run on AT40. I disagree with this point as well. I don't think the chart used killed AT40. AT40 has changed from Radio & Records, to a national radio station survey by Mediabase 24/7, to some chart calculated by only the stations that carry them by Mediabase 24/7. No one complains. I would argue that had CT40 and WT40 been able to use the Hot 100 they would have survived. I believe the demise was having less Top 40 brand radio stations, fewer who were interested in carrying a program, the poor mismanagement of the AT40 execs, and requiring stations to carry other ABC programming with getting the clearance to run the show when it was becoming less and less popular. I think it was entirely music industry and Network business related. I do not think it had anything to do with the music, host, or the chart being used itself. Might the latter have turned off a handful of people? Yes. But I don't think it turned off any number that would make a substantial difference.
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Post by Shadoe Fan on Jun 8, 2011 12:53:11 GMT -5
Now, once Billboard made the switch to Soundscan, Casey and company may have been happy that they were using R&R at that point. It could be argued that event was one of the blows to Shadoe's run on AT40. I disagree with this point as well. I don't think the chart used killed AT40. AT40 has changed from Radio & Records, to a national radio station survey by Mediabase 24/7, to some chart calculated by only the stations that carry them by Mediabase 24/7. No one complains. I would argue that had CT40 and WT40 been able to use the Hot 100 they would have survived. I believe the demise was having less Top 40 brand radio stations, fewer who were interested in carrying a program, the poor mismanagement of the AT40 execs, and requiring stations to carry other ABC programming with getting the clearance to run the show when it was becoming less and less popular. I think it was entirely music industry and Network business related. I do not think it had anything to do with the music, host, or the chart being used itself. Might the latter have turned off a handful of people? Yes. But I don't think it turned off any number that would make a substantial difference. I have to disagree. If the post 11/30/91 Hot 100 was still used on CT40, it would have hurt it pretty bad. Before AT40 switched charts, as early as 1990, there were instructions on the cue sheets of how to edit out "offensive" rap songs. With the chart change, more rap invaded the chart. I don't think it would have mattered as much to those stations in most major markets, but I'm willing to bet a lot of smaller markets in the middle of the USA would've dropped the show. Although, even WPLJ had AT40 edit out the rap songs to give them a special version of the song for their format (see Rob's book). CT40 used R&R because R&R did not charge them a fee to use the charts. In the end, this helped the show. Now CT40 would more accurately reflect the songs that were played on the stations that carried them. The Hot 100 would have a lot of songs that weren't played on the stations that carried a show, turning them away. The reason modern AT40 uses its current chart is because it is based upon affiliate's airplay. No or very few unfamiliar songs are played on the show. Thus I think one reason CT40 survived while AT40 died is because of the charts. However, another big reason is Casey himself. Casey had bigger star power than Shadoe (and you know I'm a big Shadoe fan too. )
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Post by dukelightning on Jun 8, 2011 14:33:35 GMT -5
The primary reason AT40 failed in the 90s is that Casey was much more popular and accepted than Shadoe. Charts could not have been that much os an issue because since Dec. 1991, AT40 was not using the HOT 100 either. So it was slow death in the early and mid 90s as more and more stations (not necessarily the same ones) left AT40 and signed up for Ct40. The common denominator between all 3 shows (Rick Dees is the third) is that they stayed away from rap music dominated charts eventually.
the biggest act of the decade got there by hitting #1 8 times....4/14/79
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Post by bottlerocket on Jun 8, 2011 15:06:25 GMT -5
Wow...this topic has created quite a charged response which I think is reflective of the sadness many of us felt as an end of an era. I was a chart fanatic around the onset of of the Soundscan era and I remember how many, including myself, felt the chart had changed forever. I still regard the 90s as the lost generation of pop music, an entirely different experience than some of us had growing up in the 70s and 80s pop scene.
Since it is only opinion, I'll add my two cents which incorporates a number of things already mentioned. In retrospect, I think Soundscan was the scapegoat for the other changes happening at the same time and, in many ways, other Billboard decisions besides introducing Soundscan.
I've come to think the two major changes that were responsible for the Hot 100 chart being largely unrepresentative of the pop scene are as follows: 1) Pop music splintered in a way that hadn't happened in previous decades. In particular, rap/hip-hop and grunge took music to an extreme so that by the mid-90s you would be hard-pressed to find a station that played all the top 40 songs on a weekly Hot 100. Therefore, using the Hot 100, as mentioned by others in detail, became too dividing and explains in part why CT40 with its more adult contemporary view of pop music lasted longer being played on AC stations. It's important to remember that pop music has always in a large part been determined by tweens and teens. Many young adults today who grew up during this time consider rap/hip-hop and grunge songs that were controversial back then their "Hey Jude"s, "Stayin Alive"s and "Billie Jean"s.
2) The other problem was the steady decline of the singles market. I remember when "Listen To Your Heart" became the first number one song not available in vinyl and I wondered what kind of effect this would ultimately have. Cassettes singles were nearly as bulky as cassette albums and were just a few dollars more in some instances. No surprise, sales declined dramatically over time but were still being weighted in a way so that a song moving a relatively few units (compared to 1970s standards) could be number one. Compounding the problem was Billboard's refusal to chart any song on the Hot 100 that was not released as a single, a policy they eventually overturned but way too late in my opinion. Songs like "Don't Speak" and "Torn" which had long reigns at number one on the airplay chart were non-hits as far as the Hot 100 was concerned. This to me more than any other factor makes the Hot 100 a useless tool for historically representing what was the most popular song for any week in the mid to late 90s.
I believe Soundscan was actually a more accurate determination of what songs radio stations were playing. What it uncovered was that radio stations were playing popular songs long after they peaked in popularity which was at odds with their self-reported playlists. For those of us who like to compare different eras by typical point systems, this presented problems as songs were breaking all sorts of longevity records.
I imagine I'm going against the grain by saying that today the pop music scene is much more in line with the pop scene of the 70s and 80s than the 90s. Digital sales of singles along with soundscan impressions make for a very specific ranking of songs. Most of the songs are played by most top 40 stations. Even the hip-hop/rap songs don't have the hard edge they had back in the 90s. To be honest, I'm surprised there is no show counting down the top 40 songs on the Hot 100. As much as I loved Casey's shows back in his heyday, what gives these shows their authority was the use of the Hot 100, still the industry standard for what song is number one. You'll never see a Jeopardy category "Cashbox's Number One Hits"...
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Post by Shadoe Fan on Jun 8, 2011 15:14:40 GMT -5
The primary reason AT40 failed in the 90s is that Casey was much more popular and accepted than Shadoe. Charts could not have been that much os an issue because since Dec. 1991, AT40 was not using the HOT 100 either. So it was slow death in the early and mid 90s as more and more stations (not necessarily the same ones) left AT40 and signed up for Ct40. The common denominator between all 3 shows (Rick Dees is the third) is that they stayed away from rap music dominated charts eventually. The Hot Airplay chart used in 1992 on AT40 also had a lot of "unfamiliar" songs on it for many radio stations. AT40 would've eventually died anyway based on what we've said, but the charts it used made it happen faster.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 16:50:09 GMT -5
I disagree with this point as well. I don't think the chart used killed AT40. AT40 has changed from Radio & Records, to a national radio station survey by Mediabase 24/7, to some chart calculated by only the stations that carry them by Mediabase 24/7. No one complains. I would argue that had CT40 and WT40 been able to use the Hot 100 they would have survived. I believe the demise was having less Top 40 brand radio stations, fewer who were interested in carrying a program, the poor mismanagement of the AT40 execs, and requiring stations to carry other ABC programming with getting the clearance to run the show when it was becoming less and less popular. I think it was entirely music industry and Network business related. I do not think it had anything to do with the music, host, or the chart being used itself. Might the latter have turned off a handful of people? Yes. But I don't think it turned off any number that would make a substantial difference. I have to disagree. If the post 11/30/91 Hot 100 was still used on CT40, it would have hurt it pretty bad. Before AT40 switched charts, as early as 1990, there were instructions on the cue sheets of how to edit out "offensive" rap songs. With the chart change, more rap invaded the chart. I don't think it would have mattered as much to those stations in most major markets, but I'm willing to bet a lot of smaller markets in the middle of the USA would've dropped the show. Although, even WPLJ had AT40 edit out the rap songs to give them a special version of the song for their format (see Rob's book). CT40 used R&R because R&R did not charge them a fee to use the charts. In the end, this helped the show. Now CT40 would more accurately reflect the songs that were played on the stations that carried them. The Hot 100 would have a lot of songs that weren't played on the stations that carried a show, turning them away. The reason modern AT40 uses its current chart is because it is based upon affiliate's airplay. No or very few unfamiliar songs are played on the show. Thus I think one reason CT40 survived while AT40 died is because of the charts. However, another big reason is Casey himself. Casey had bigger star power than Shadoe (and you know I'm a big Shadoe fan too. ) I think you sort of misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying AT40 could continue to use the Hot 100 and been in the same predicament. They wouldn't have lasted as long as they did because the chart changed was major from 11/30/91 - forward. What I was saying is the charts used after switching did not kill AT40 in my opinion. I was saying they could have used any chart from Billboard, R&R, or wherever and their fate would have been the same because of the business reasons I mentioned. I was assuming no one figured the Hot 100 was a good one to use after Soundscan came into the picture so I was not specifically addressing it. Also, yes I know Kasem was more widely known and popular than Stevens was. But I stand by my business and radio afiliate statements when it comes to this. Had Top 40 radio not fragmented the way it did, there would probably have been room for all 3 shows to have a strong network affiliate list. But, with stations moving in different directions that wasn't the case. You had Casey, Rick, and Shadoe. Casey's show is a given. Now you're down to the other two...one show is done by a morning DJ who has a clue about the music scene, contests, humor, and is providing them only a show with no strings attached. The other is the show with the name recognition but the popular host is gone and other programming and spots are required to air with this one. Most are going to lean to the one with no strings attached to airing it I would think.
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Post by Shadoe Fan on Jun 8, 2011 18:19:18 GMT -5
^^I'm not disagreeing about the splintering of the top 40 format. I agree that it played a significant part of the process. AT40's original demise was a combination of a lot of factors.
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Post by matt on Jun 9, 2011 12:25:06 GMT -5
To add to my earlier comment that the switch from the Hot 100 factored into the downfall of AT40 with Shadoe, here are some of the thoughts behind that statement. While I agree that Shadoe's run with AT40 was already in trouble by the end of 1991 and the demise of the show was probably inevitable, I am of the belief that the switch away from the Hot 100 chart definitely contributed and perhaps accelerated the show's decline, and here's why: I am speaking from my own personal experience with the show, and while I didn't like the show as well with Shadoe as with Casey (and let's face it--those were going to be tough shoes for anyone to fill), I thought Shadoe did a nice job and stuck with the show into the first months of the Soundscan era. One of the reasons was that I am somewhat of a "brand loyalist" and just always thought of AT40 as the best Top 40 show on radio. But the bigger reason was that I was a pretty avid follower of the Billboard Hot 100, and I assume that a good percentage of listeners were too, as the Hot 100 was, as Casey always said, the authority in the music industry for determining the most popular songs. The use of the Billboard Hot 100 was perhaps the biggest advantage that AT40 still had over CT40 and Rick Dees. However, once the Hot 100 changed to Soundscan and incorporated much more radio "unfriendly" music, AT40's hand was somewhat forced to make the change to a radio airplay chart. At that point, AT40 lost a real edge that it had over it's competitors and all the listening audience really got to hear was just another airplay chart, very similar to the R&R chart. So the question became, why not just listen exclusively to Casey (or Dees for those that liked his show), since we are no longer hearing the Hot 100's top 40 with Shadoe? All of the other points I believe are well said, particularly the ultimate consequences of the splits in genres in the early 90's and the impact that had on the Hot 100 and AT40. To go back to my earlier "chicken or egg" point, whether the Hot 100's change was a cause or an effect of the evolution of CHR/pop music, the split in genres, etc., Shadoe and company were certainly not done any favors with the Hot 100 change. Now, we could also go even further and ask the question: why did genres and radio formats split to the degree they did in the early '90s, thus setting into motion these changes? Was it a split in demographic tastes (i.e. did the tastes of the younger/teenage audiences diverge that drastically from the more adult audiences)? Were there just that many more artists and songs by the early '90s than there were 20 years earlier, making it that much harder to have simple Top 40 CHR stations that could play all the hits, and a Top 40 show that could count them all down? The debate continues...
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Post by jaxxalude on Jun 9, 2011 13:20:01 GMT -5
I think a lot of what you ask is already answered in one of my earlier posts. Like everything, music and the way it's brought to the consumer changes with the times. The changes in the charts over the years are just a mirror of society at any given time. And like I also said earlier, that genre-splittering wasn't totally new by the early 90's. If one wants to set a parallel to what happened then with any other context, I'd say the late 60's are the best one. In the early 90's, it was the almost simultaneous explosion of alt.rock & grunge & heavier strands of metal, hardcore rap & post-New Jack R&B and also country-pop which contributed to the decline of mainstream pop music for most of the decade. In the late 60's, it was the emergence of the counterculture and associated genres like psychedelia, prog rock, hard rock and post-Motown soul & funk that made the earlier rock stars of yore seem like Perry Como by comparison. Interestingly, it was amid these latter changes that AT40 first got on the air, thus facing a tough environment, since Top 40 radio was seen as passé by then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 13:37:28 GMT -5
I can only speak from personal experience with my local station at the time. Back in 1993, Power 95 went back to just being WAPE. With this, the PD asked listeners what they wanted out of the station. Apparently, the winning formula was no rap or hard rock. So, with that it was all removed supposedly. Actually, it was more "remove it when we want to but there is no set reasoning to what we'll do" formula (the long story of that is coming up moments from now). So, I imagine some of it depends on who is around. Some of it may also have been like you mentioned, the 20-something pop music fans were sick of New Kids, Vanilla Ice, and Snow types running around and getting airplay a lot. So, they tuned out. When they tune out, advertisers tune out also because 18- 30 something I think is the sought after advertising demographic. Mike Shad Ford (a premium type advertiser) isn't going to advertise on the local CHR channel if most of the people listening are those preparing for the senior prom. So, they wind up catering their taste to reach an audience that will bring in a larger advertising demo. In that same vein, if you are in LA and the number one rated channel there is one that plays a lot of hip hop, KIIS being the top 40 channel may lean towards playing a lot more of that to bring those listeners over in order to get higher ad rates. In the end, it's all about money, not about blackballing one style of music or the other.
Now, as promised my long diatribe about WAPE after their format change roulette...., for weeks the station never aired "Looking Through Patient Eyes" by PM Dawn (momentarily I'll discuss Casey's Top 40 during this time), anything by Dr. Dre, or "Shoop" by Salt n Pepa. Patient Eyes and Shoop hardly rise to the level of "rap" in my opinion. They only began playing those two after they got versions that removed any hint of rap in them at all...so pretty much every word other than the chorus of PM Dawn's song. So, by that philosophy it should apply to hard rock too, right? That now coincides with Casey's Top 40....
Immediately after making this decision of channel direction, the show's sound quality dropped immensely. It sounded like someone had dubbed it to a really bad cassette tape and was playing it from there. I didn't understand this at first, but about 15 minutes later it made sense..I waited for a story about "Hip Hop Hooray" which Casey Kasem had teased going into the break. Upon returning, 1 song....then another.....then another....then another. There was a commercial break and it hit me that "Hip Hop Hooray" had been removed from the show. They had to edit these songs out, thud the reason for the bad quality as it was in fact, dubbed. Early on, this caused all sorts of chaos. When Looking Through Patient Eyes was #1, they instead aired the #1 from Casey's Countdown in it's place which was "Love Is." They finally got their act somewhat together and just edited in a previous week's song with that number and went on with life. The first week David Perry subbed there was yet another problem...obviously, it was his first week. They had nothing on him at all. So when "Dre Day" appeared on the chart you hear the number jingle (I think it was 31) the song start playing with no intro or anything, the song fades all the way out, dead silence for a moment and then, "...thirty one. For Casey Kasem, I'm David Perry...." The hard rock songs that were allegedly not going to air were never, ever removed. Everything from Aerosmith, Stone Temple Pilots, New Order, and Candlebox all aired like no format change had ever occurred.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jun 9, 2011 15:43:47 GMT -5
Hmmm... I guess in that particular case, it truly was blackballing.
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Post by matt on Jun 10, 2011 11:44:27 GMT -5
Do you all get the feeling that stations didn't know what the heck to do during the 90's? Seems like format flipping became a national sport for a while there. I always thought it was unfortunate too--seemed like a handful of the stations I listened to would finally land on a good format, then flip it within a year or two. Probably no other time turned me off to commercial radio than those days...
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Post by mstgator on Jun 11, 2011 8:09:37 GMT -5
I know what you mean, wahoo... one of the stations I listened to at the time switched from mass appeal pre-fragment CHR to rhythmic leaning, then to adult leaning, within a span of a little over a year, before finally dumping Top 40 altogether for Country. Another went from pre-fragment CHR (during most of the '80s), to the short-lived Rock 40 format, back to CHR, then to rhythmic, then adult... all this within about three years (Paul can probably add more details on that one, 99.9 out of Palatka/Daytona Beach). I had to resort to a static-ridden out-of-market station to get some consistency.
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Post by jaxxalude on Jun 11, 2011 10:59:28 GMT -5
Notice that those format flips were happening mainly with Top 40 stations. I mean, I think it's already common knowledge (among literates on these things like us) that what lead to Top 40's doldrums during most of the 90's was the fact that there was both a generational and style schism among listeners. And running the risk of repeating myself over and over, it was the coming of things like hardcore rap & post-New Jack R&B, grunge & alternative & heavier rock and the "hipsterization" of country music which lead to that. Most of this music was what appealed to the younger demographics, but turned off the older generation, which was more into their classic rock, adult contemporary and certain strands of mainstream pop. To add insult to injury (so to say), the youngsters had also developed a tribe-like mentality; those who were into Urban generally didn't want to hear about Alternative and vice-versa. And so it went throughout most of the decade. The remaining Top 40 stations had to, of course, adapt to these fragmented times. And so it was that KIIS-FM became very rhythmic-leaning (which still is to this day), Z-100 adopted a very strong Alternative stance and so on.
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